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QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 01:40 PM) What are his chances at AL MVP? Abreu or Donaldson ? I think Abreu gets way more votes than Donaldson but that's strictly subjective voting and the A's are a much better "team" with decent players at a few more positions than the Sox. Gaudy offensive numbers help but it usually goes to a guy on a winner. Therefore Abreu's chances for MVP are slim to none.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 01:04 PM) This is the argument that gets me. "Rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding." WTF does that mean? To you it seems to mean -- put a crappy bullpen out there because you don't have a better plan -- then when the crappy bullpen sinks the season, tell the fans "we were just rebuilding; thanks for spending your good money coming to our games; we didn't really plan on contending this year anyway so it doesn't really matter that our bullpen stinks!!" I'm confident that's NOT what the Sox brass intended. Instead, they had a plan, it was just a BAD PLAN. It was also a plan that undervalued the difference that a good bullpen can make on a team's W-L record. For both of those reasons, Rick Hahn deserves considerable criticism. It's NO DEFENSE for Hahn to say "rebuilding." And, in fact, if we were able to get Rick Hahn to answer this question honestly, I bet he would agree that he messed up the bullpen this season. I just hope he learns his lesson. The plans was ,and you seem to be in the minority here, to build a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers . Players that do not usually fluctuate in performance as much as bullpen pieces do and to have enough money left over to cross that bullpen bridge when they got to that point of having that core in place. How long will it have been once the Cubs or Astro's or the Pirates or the Royal get to the playoffs ? How long has it been since the A's became winners for the last few years. Didn't you use the Indian's and Royals as an example of better bullpens ? Do you think they are going to make the playoffs ? Do you think they have a chance to win the World Series this year ? Yes the bullpen was not at the top of the list of priorities. Position players and starting pitching will always be given more priority. When you can come up with a formula for how to determine which bullpen pieces to acquire I will say a bullpen should be a priority. Until then you and Greg and Dick enjoy your w(h)ine.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 11:45 AM) Of course it's a flawed statistic, but no statistic is perfect. It's also difficult to just assume that teams are going to remain the same record wise. The Sox I think would be - they could simply move Gillaspie over to 1B and they'd be sitting right around their same mark - but the A's then have to do something with Moss or Abreu and find a 3B, which cuts 5 positional runs from either's value due to the positional adjustment made in WAR. That's the problem with those stats. They are based on measures and probabilities and linear weights and measures and God knows what else a simpleton like me can't nor doesn't want to take the time to try and understand without going back to college or taking night classes. The beauty of ERA and batting averages and RBI's and Slugging and OBP is that the math for calculating those things is relatively simple. Anyone with an 8th grade education can follow it. They are part of the reason why baseball was America's game. I understand that the game is no longer the simple pleasure it once was . But it is still the same game on the field with a DH . But is no longer simple to evaluate a player . It has gone the way of big business and over analization to the point of reams and reams of paper pushing.It makes the guys with the computers instant baseball experts wihthout ever having stepped foot on the field or been in the trenches . For this my heart break a little.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 12:28 PM) In hindsight, yes. In hindsight many guys sucked this year. We can't go back and retroactively cut the 10 guys on this team who have underperformed either. But in terms of a building a baseball team, that is a move you make every, single time, no matter what hindsight you apply here. Dick doesn't use hindsight he clearly stated his plan to contend every year and his opposition to rebuilding all along. Didn't you know that ?

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 11:59 AM) I agree with all of this. All the acquired pieces are here on 1 year deals. By design. Stop making sense. A GM dealing with the media every day cannot just come out and say I think we have every piece we need to win the World Series this year and especially can't say "we have no chance this year" .The political thing he must say is " I like our team. I think we have improved and are working on a goal we feel will put us in contention for many years to come. We have a young exciting team and we're going to get much better sooner rather than later."

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 12:07 PM) I actually wanted them to keep a $538k pitcher. I don't know what you are on to come up with the other stuff, although I'm sure you are now glad the Sox spent some money on Abreu. And they bid 9 figures on Tanaka. They have plenty of money. You also wanted to sign a few other pitchers to mega year deals. What I am "on" is your refusal to state how you would have made the Sox a winner this year and for years to come. You can't just say making better decisions on the bullpen gives us a contender without having a plan to start with . Don't try going on the attack against me. I know your M.O. Of course they have plenty of money and they didn't spend all of it this year because they are rebuilding rebuilding rebuilding. What part of that do you not understand ? You must be on something if you can't comprehend .What they don't have is unlimited resources to spend on the most unpredictable way there is in baseball to make the right choices besides the draft and that is the bullpen. The payroll will be at its max ,whatever that is when, the Sox decide they need a major piece to put them over the top. Otherwise it can't be sustained for long that way in this market.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 11:40 AM) Like I was saying, if Hahn didn't make the Reed /Davidson trade, the White Sox would probably be within 2 games of the 2nd wild card, with a head to head coming up in Toronto. I have taken a stand and don't change my stance with the wind. He weakened the bullpen with that trade and didn't strengthen anything except non Charlotte Knights IL pitchers' k-rates. OK so your stance is contend every year right ? Hand out big contracts, sign free agents, pay a lot for more established bullpen pieces. So basically spend like a drunken sailor in the Phillipines ? Somehow sign a big TV contract have no injuries, every pot luck signee produces beyond expectations, fans are flocking to the Cell. I can get behind that philosophy only it doesn't work that way with our current owner or being the 2nd most popular team in a 2 team city.. Trade Reinsdorf for Mark Cuban and I'm behind you 100 %.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 11:27 AM) You can rebuild and contend at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. Many on this board thought, going into the season, that the Sox would be around .500. Which puts you into contention for the playoffs (if not the World Series) in today's MLB. Rick Hahn didn't intentionally build a bad bullpen, or completely ignore the pen on the idea that it wasn't worth doing anything until the team was ready to "contend." He did, however, have a very bad plan, and undervalued the importance of a good pen, and he deserves criticism on both counts, since with a better plan, and a better pen, the 2014 White Sox would be vying for first place in the AL Central, not to mention a wild card slot. I think these points are undeniable. They pretty much are mutually exclusive unless you have great attendance, a huge TV contract, a deep farm system, a deep pockets owner willing to spend anything it takes to contend, lack of injuries, and a hit or two on your wishful thinking signees . Which of these do the Sox have? Zilch , zip, nada, goose egg. That's 6 things a team usually needs to compete .Even getting a few of them and you compete.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 10:41 AM) This is about the bullpen. My thoughts on how to build a winner are all throughout Soxtalk. Look them up. Some don't appear like they are any good. Some are pure genius. But generally, pitching wins. I don't like the free agents this year, they are either going to cost a ton or really suck. That's why I wanted the Sox to look at them last season. Maybe that was dumb too. They need a starter. The bullpen is in shambles and they need a LH bat. Someone had an idea yesterday about VMart or Mourneau. I'm leery of VMart and don't think he'll leave Detroit anyway, but Mourneau is intriquing. His numbers are really good this season and his home/road splits are pretty even. His price tag shouldn't be too much. No way I would trade Ramirez unless blown away. Hahn is crafting his pitching staff around being groundball pitchers, and with Beckham out the door losing Ramirez would put a hurt on the pitching staff. If they both are gone next season, it may not always seem obvious but there are DPs turned by these guys that aren't turned by others.. And the bullpen is wide open. The Sox will also need a catcher, but there is Russell Martin and a ton of crap. Listening to Hahn the other day, I have a feeling at least one of Sanchez, Micah Johnson , Semien will not be White Sox property in 2015. I have mentioned Semien as a guy I would use like Tony Phillips earlier in his career where he can play several positions. Everyone but Sale, Q and Abreu would be available. Rodon would also be unavailable but he can't be traded anyway. It really isn't about the bullpen.it's about contending this year since you've been arguing that with a bullpen " I coulda been a contenda, instead of a bum , which is what I am". But at least you gave me some clue on your thoughts but not the main one I asked for. Build for a contender every year or build a strong young core ( which hardly ever includes bullpen pieces)? Both ? Can't really do both since now it takes mega contracts to keep core intact or fill holes you missed. So I don't actually know your personal philosophy except that you are condemning Hahn for not making the right decisions to build a bullpen for CONTENDING THIS YEAR. Also it's more of a state of the union your giving me with a few exceptions for a few guys . But I also thought a free agent ,specifically Ellsbury should've been signed since I value above avg hit tool and speed and defense for outfielders more than I do power ,but this team just can't compete signing free agents like him with the Yankees . And lo and behold that guy who talked about VMart and Morneau was me in my initial stages of looking for LH bats to acquire. I still think you're a contrarian ( I'm being nice) then anything else but you,in your 3rd or 4th attempt, won't take a stand one way or another on a philosophy. I can only conclude you want to try to contend every year and that's fine. But I'd like to hear it from you. Trust me ,I like to contend every year too but its nearly impossible in the day and age of mega contracts that cripple teams without deep pocket owners so I don't argue for a great bullpen in what should've been a rebuilding year.

QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 10:49 AM) 1B is far and away the least important position. No position compares to it. Since 2000, there has only been one season in which a 1B has contributed a full win above average (it's harder for me to access the WAR value). That was Pujols in 2007. That defensive season was more than twice as valuable than the next closer in those 15 years. Out of all the 1B players to play a qualifying amount since 2000, only 25 times has a 1B had a season in which their defensive contribution was above the average player (of any position). They don't pull this stuff out of thin air. Each play is evaluated for its difficulty and its consequence. Making a very difficult play adds to your defensive value, especially if that play is likely to pay dividends in terms of saving runs. 1B are just not tested defensively nearly as often as any other position and the plays they make tend to be of little consequence. They never throw - that's a big deal. 1B rarely have to make defensive plays in which they throw; that's the big difference between them and a 3B (that, and the amount of RH vs LH hitters). Another way to think about it - how many players are good at a position that isn't 1B but would be bad at 1B? While not ideal, I'd argue that Adam Eaton would be fine at 1B. That's because he's a baseball player who knows how to catch throws. It's nice to have a tall guy, but that's okay because he'd make up for it by actually being mobile. The average CF, SS, or C is going to be far better at 1B than any 1B would be at those positions. It's just that now WAR is being viewed by the media and the casual and even a somewhat knowledgeable fan like me who isn't saber smart as the next new thing when it comes to determining who is better or more valuable . Maybe that's the problem If you think Donaldson is just as valuable as Abreu or more so would you trade them for each other ? I wouldn't because elite offense no matter the position you play is much harder to find than elite defense at a premium position.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 10:31 AM) Offensive value is measured in terms of "runs created" and defensive value is measured in terms of "runs saved" and the two values carry equal weight. A player who creates 40 offensive runs and saves 0 defensive runs is equal in value to a player who creates 20 offensive runs and saves 20 defensive runs. Yes but we also know that runs created in baseball is a lot easier to understand or quantify then runs saved on defense. If Abreu was a butcher at 1st he'd save a lot less runs but because it isn't a premium position he doesn't get as much credit as other infielders or OF's do for using their speed in things like range. Basically he gets no points for playing a position that isn't deemed as important yet he get's more fielding chances and chances to make mistakes than other positions Now we all know catching perfect throws to 1st isn't that hard so I understand it to a degree. The formula in general works but not if you consider many think elite offense is more important and I am a huge advocate of good defense but it just seems like he's penalized for being a typical large 1st baseman who isn't fast. The position evolved that way and playing it well shouldn't be a detriment to a stat like WAR . Of course I'm not a saber guy and I often get lost when I hear explanations of these things because it seems like you need some knowledge of advanced math to understand some of these things .

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 10:17 AM) Josh Donaldson, Jason Heyward, and Alex Gordon all play semi-premium to premium defensive positions and they play it incredibly well while being fairly to very productive hitters to boot. It's not flawed whatsoever. In theory, yes, the White Sox are only 4 games better. Much of that depends upon context, which WAR removes from the equation. Still, I feel the difference between 54-58 and 50-62 is incredibly signficant. I think the question is more like "is good defense at a premium position just as important in the eyes of WAR as elite offensive production is" ? Is the equation equally balanced when some people might think elite production in the lineup batting 3rd or 4th is more important than playing elite defense at a prime position. Why should any player's WAR be less when they play a position that it isn't necessary to have speed or not necessary when you're a big man crushing the ball. Seems that premium position players get more perks for contributing in all areas when baseball wasn't built for that at some positions.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 10:07 AM) Go back to the thread with the trade. You will see I am not criticizing after the fact. So that's all you got ? Your stance on one trade ? I didn't ask for that . I asked for a stance on how to build the Sox into a winner. 2 responses no answer on that so you're leaving me to assume that playing devils advocate or being a contrarian is your thing . Isn't that called trolling ?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 09:32 AM) Addison Reed makes 538k this year. About 1/6th what they pay Beli and 1/8 what they paid Downs. I thought that trade was dumb from the start. It's documented. I get on people for getting on Ventura after the fact. Anyone who really thinks Addison Reed doesn't help this team is just fooling themselves, just like they are fooling themselves if they think Matt Davidson is going to develop into a middle of the order major league bat. 2nd guessing mangers is as old as baseball itself whether its before or after the fact. In the history of the game it's usually after the fact since the internet is a more recent development and before that it was done after the fact in newspapers and sportstalk radio. Some here make good points some do not, But again please tell me your opinions of how you think Hahn should be developing his roster because you are criticizing after the fact as well . Your thing is arguing the stances people take on various topics. For once say what your stance is how to turn this team around ( not just one trade) so people can find your old posts and find your faults , your hits and misses ,the way you do it to others.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 09:38 AM) LOL, I like Moises, but he's definitely a guy you bring along slowly. Acting as the 4th outfielder for the near and intermediate future is a perfect role for him, and if he plays himself into more plate appearances, that's not a bad thing. Pretty much, but I think he has played himself into getting more PA's and is in dire need of getting them. As far as being a lottery ticket or making a name for himself ( a point you didn't make) that point is moot since the for the vast majority of young players that is the case. Guys with 5 tools should be given more chances than he has had to succeed. They are just too rare to vanish into baseball purgatory.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 09:20 AM) Still not as bad as Darin Erstad hitting 2nd on Opening Day for a team coming off a 90 win season, even if he did hit a 2 run homer. I view yours and Kalapse posts as support

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 07:25 AM) Right now he is worth hanging on to, he costs very little and has some upside. If there is something better that comes along then you take that into account, but much like bullpen bingo, he is like a lottery ticket that could pay off. I keep thinking about that term "lottery ticket" . If you're looking for the big payout, the odds are probably over 1,000,000 to 1. With baseball players, given the right development and luck it's closer to 1000 to 1 that you get a big payoff if you're choosing from say AA to major league players going from a nobody to a very good player for a few years in the Major Leagues . Less than that if you already have advanced tools and even less when you get the playing time needed. But I understand the point

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 08:43 AM) That's why, if you think you have a shot at winning, you don't trade Addison Reed for Josh Fields Jr. People had no problem and still don't with the Sox getting rid of him. Yet now the bullpen sucks because Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom, yes the same Matt Lindstrom some where doing cartwheels about when they found out he was hurt and would no longer be closing, aren't there. If Jones and Lindstrom were both healthy, and really, I don't know how in the world anyone can assume a pitching staff won't suffer numerous injuries, the Sox bullpen would still suck. Hahn knew it in spring training, but it was too late. You know DA, you get on a lot of people about 2nd guessing Robin Ventura yet here you are 2nd guessing Hahn and the people who are defending Hahn . All of a sudden you think Hahn should've treated this year like a contending year. So I hope you can make it clear for me what you think Hahn should have done from the beginning. Should he treat every year as a contending year spend a lot of money , keep the payroll high, give out huge long term contracts to just a few individuals 4? 5? 6 OR MORE ? Try to establish a core of young players, build slowly ? Attempt to do both at the same time? At least be consistent in your devil's advocates posts or trolling as some prefer to call it.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 07:20 AM) I definitely agree with the bolded part. I don't see the Sox using Sierra as an everyday outfielder, but in using him as a 4th outfielder and possibly getting him ABs as the right handed part of a DH platoon (or more likely Tank as the DH and Sierra in the OF in those games), they could get him 250-300 PAs over the season. If he excels and forces himself into more playing time, well that's a good problem to have. So what about all those AB's Beckham and Tank and De Aza got the last few years ? The Sox weren't trying to make the playoffs ? Gillaspie and Keppinger last year ? I could probably name a lot more players too if I had to look up lousy players getting 400 AB's on terrible, mediocre or playoff teams since no matter how often teams try to make the playoffs they often fail. I want to see him get at least 400 AB's for once in his life. One lousy chance since he is 25 and running out of those chances. But what you say makes sense , there's just no guarantee he ever gets the chance to prove himself with the Sox. I'd probably be good with him as the 4th outfielder but right now he's like 5th and that won't get better with Avi coming back.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 08:17 AM) I think if Sierra got himself some Flinstones vitamins, he probably could be a star. If he stays clean, he is probably a guy if he played every day for a while you would probably have seen enough reasonably soon. So you're saying he'd be Beckham like if he got as much PT as Beckham. I hope he gets the same chances. Actually just a chance. Beckhams had enough rope to hang himself at least 3 times. Viciedo is approaching that level also .

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 08:09 AM) To summarize more clearly: I see Sierra's ceiling as a high of a hybrid of De Aza/Viciedo, based on the outline I made earlier. I also don't see Sierra ever really getting there based on his other shortfalls. Ok so you're agreeing that the ceiling of one Sierra > the combination of De Aza and Tank using all their skills combined unless I'm misunderstanding because I'm not sure your clarification was all that clear.Not sure if you meant a "higher hybrid" since we're talking ceilings or "kind of a hybrid" . Either way, if that's the case ,then I made my point for him being deserving of more playing time than either De Aza or Tank.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 07:53 AM) It is my experience that low IQ players have less of a chance of succeeding, because even if they don't fully realize their tool set, their chances of contributing meaningfully to a team drop, because of the level of mistakes they make. I see a lot of Alejandro De Aza in Moises Sierra. I think there is talent there, but a decent level of it will never be realized. I have no problem with him as a 4th OF, I don't want to see him as a starter. What you call a low IQ player is way too judgmental in young players. The more baseball you play the better you should get in understanding your abilities and the importance of making the right decisions based on situations. You see low IQ , I see youth and inexperience and extremely toolsy .On one hand you advocate a combination of De Aza and Tank and I know I've seen you bash De Aza's IQ in the past. If Sierra is making the same mistakes De Aza made at 29 yrs old I'll agree he is a low baseball IQ guy.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 07:18 AM) Just throw out the Puig idea. He doesn't have anywhere close to that ceiling. Actually De Aza/Viciedo hybrid makes more sense. The power and speed of De Aza (15-20 homer top, 30 steal top), with the arm of Viciedo (but better, really a plus/plus arm). The baseball IQ of both of them, including defensive instincts. I don't see where you think I'm comparing Puig to Sierra regarding ceilings. You mentioned Sierra's outfield and base running IQ so I said Puig and Eaton make the same kind of mistakes . Puig especially in spades. That was the comparison not in their ceilings. Young players make mistake simple as that when they believe in their abilities and are aggressive in their throwing and base running. Talking about the speed and power of De Aza is pointless . The guy is 30 , he has no upside any longer .Sierra's arm is just as good as Viciedo's and his speed and defensive upside is way beyond Tanks. Again all I'm saying is he needs more AB's , to play more baseball to develop his talents. I just want him to get a chance. Are the chances of him becoming a Carlos Gomez type player high. No. But it is a small possibility. Hell, the chances of Gomez becoming what he is now weren't that high either especially getting limited playing time like he was. The chance of De Aza or Tank becoming that good are non-existent.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:55 AM) What I saw early from Sierra scared me. He seems like a low IQ baserunner and a guy who depends on his plus arm more than making the right play. I've seen him fly his cut-off man more than once trying to make a play, instead of making the smart throw and keeping a trail runner from taking an extra base, and eliminating a DP chance. He also doesn't seem like a very smart baserunner. Maybe those are things that can be fixed, but mixing that, with the fact that Toronto was already ready to let the obviously talented kid walk away, makes me wonder if Sierra is someone that Ventura and his team have been really successful at finding good match ups for, and if some of his numbers are looking better because of that. Puig makes a lot of mistakes too. Eaton's made a few boneheaded base running errors too.That just comes with the territory often with young players. They believe in their abilities to make things happen. It just has to be harnessed. Getting playing time is a chance to grow in all facets of the game. I know the Sox need to see what they have in Viciedo too and Tank will never be a fast runner or plus defender because of that difference in speed. So Sierra is just as deserving if not more so than Tank because of his tools alone.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:42 AM) And De Aza will be gone next year, and he'll get his shot. EDIT: Hopefully Viciedo is gone too. I hope he gets a shot sooner than that. For development purposes he needs all the AB's he can get. To further my comparison to Carlos Gomez , Gomez had 600+ AB's with the Twins in 2008 then for the next 3 years ,09, 10, 11 he got under 400 with the Twin and Brewers ,regardless of whether it was injuries or playing time he still didn't get the AB's. In 2013 he got over 400 AB's but had a breakout power year with 19 HR's, played the same great defense but had around the same batting average and OBP as he did with the Twins in 08. 2013 way more AB's , close to 600 ,same power, better batting average ,better OBP , same great glove. Once he started getting those AB's he developed his tools. Just would be a shame to see a guy with Sierra's tools never get a chance to be a full time player.