CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:00 AM) I don't think we should plan on it. Regardless, he could be a good 4th OF piece for us for the next couple years, and that's not insignificant. Plan on what exactly ? I'm only saying he has the tools to be great like a lot of guys do but so few actually ever realize. I know he has more upside at this point than either De Aza or Tank but isn't getting the same chance . Get the guy some AB's . He's more important to the future of the Sox at this point than is De Aza . I know Robin want's to win games and put what he thinks is the best lineup out there nearly every day but the guy can run, throw, defend, hit and potentially hit for power. That's more potential and tools than either De Aza or Tank has and his AB's should reflect that because I fear when Avi comes back he will be riding the pine even more than he does now.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 05:33 AM) From the standpoint of roster construction: when you acquire players, you are acquiring probabilities. That is, each player comes with a range of potential outcomes for each appearance and, by extension, each season. A GM has to make an assessment about what the most likely outcome is for each player he has, weigh the chances of a substantially better or worse outcome, and decide whether or not he is comfortable with said probability holding down the role he has in mind. What we're witnessing is close to the worst possible outcome of this bullpen. Just one pitcher is pitching near what was probably projected as an expected performance. The top two pieces were injured for nearly the entire season, two more pieces pitching close to as poorly as they could realistically be expected to pitch, and the rest pitching below expectations to the point that should have been realistically expected. To me, it doesn't look like there were any surefire signs that these guys were to going to pitch worse than normally (injury, decline), so I chalk this up to bad luck from Hahn's point of view. I don't think there's anything wrong with the process, I think it was just a rough year. I'd expect him to approach building next year's bullpen in a similar fashion, and I'd be pretty happy with him doing so. I certainly wouldn't want him to panic and start paying steeply for Proven Closers™ who have shown to be, at best, BARELY more reliable than a random live arm in terms of sustained effectiveness over several years. Exactly. The goal was and will continue to be adding to the core for sustained years of contention. Bullpen pieces usually can't be counted on to be a core piece unless you have a lock down closer like Mariano Rivera, Kimbrel and Street. As important as a good bullpen is its usually a year to year crap shoot. This year the Sox rolled snake-eyes. Adding core pieces Hahn did pretty good. Bargain basement shopping and trade candidates developing for flipping , not so good. Probably needed 2 of those 3 to compete this year or make a big advance in the master plan. So overall a lot of improvement from last year but not enough to get optimistic about next year unless the Sox add free agents who are always too old to be considered core pieces or starts using his better minor leaguers in trades. Remember Abreu is the oldest core piece so the window revolves around him and the health of all the core pieces.

I think we can all agree that what really excites fans about a young player is a blend of speed and power. Those guys like Trout and Puig and to a lesser extent Andrew McCutcheon and Carlos Gomez. They are a rare breed smashing HR's, flying all over the outfield and the bases ,making great catches and nailing runners with awesome throws. I see some of those thing in Moises Sierra although he is in his mid 20's rather than his early 20's. He's fast, makes some outstanding catches and has a great arm .He's had some decent years in the minors nothing that would leap out at you to suggest he's a budding superstar. Has potential to hit for power being 6"1" 220 . What I did notice is that he hasn't had a chance to get 400 AB's in one level since he was 22 in AA which looks like his best season in the minors. He reminds me a lot of Carlos Gomez actually not in his minor league numbers but in development. Gomez always had the great glove but didn't break out as a hitter until he was 27 . Since the Sox picked him up he is hitting .304 with a .788 OPS in 102 AB's. All I'm saying is with his tools and size he needs to be looked at closer and deserves more playing time to see what he is. He is an exciting guy to watch certainly and without the chip on his shoulder of a Gomez or the preening of Puig. He's also appears to be a fun guy in the clubhouse. Thoughts ?

QUOTE (JamesDean @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 03:03 AM) Absolutely! There should be no doubt that Rick Hahn has somewhat decimated this pitching staff, and those who deny this can only offer lame excuses as their reasons. We're all familiar with the names and pedigrees of those who served the Sox a little more than one year ago. Peavy (Cy Young, 3x AS), Santiago, All-Star relievers Thornton and Crain, and a competent and effective closer in Reed. I understand the 'salary dump', and I don't disagree with it (though I do have questions and doubts about the return they received). What I do disagree with is the poor attempt to replace what was given away. We're familiar with those names as well, Belsario, Putnam, and Downs were all signed as free agents. The Scott Downs travesty, while it pales in comparison to the 3rd base fiasco, is quite telling. On Jan. 2, 2014, Downs was signed to a 2yr/$8M contract to fill the role vacated by the Thornton trade, even while he was one-year older, and statistically less effective. Meanwhile, Thornton signed his new contract for less money, 2yr/$7M with the Yankees about one week later. Is it still considered a 'salary dump' if the player that you've dumped signs for less money than what he'd made the prior season? Of course, Downs then gets dumped, but we should give credit to St. Rick for including a buyout clause that relieves them of paying the full contract. If you view Downs as taking Thornton's spot, both on the roster and in payroll, and Belasario takes Crain's spot, then what happened with the rest of the money saved from the salary dump of 2013? Peavy and Rios combined were slated to make $27M, yet none of this money was spent to bolster the pitching staff. With two starters traded (plus one other rotation spot questionable) and the loss of two set-up men and your closer, the effort to replace these players never happened, despite having the money to do so. Rick Hahn chose to put this money into Jerry's pocket, and now the 2014 White Sox are paying for that decision. Ironically, as other posters have mentioned, a strong bullpen would have the Sox in contention in the Central Division/Wild Card which would likely lead to larger attendances and possibly playoff revenue. Welcome to Soxtalk and quality post. I won't argue your points, they make sense. And perhaps the bigger argument is if the Sox had the money to offer Tanaka a large contract then why didn't they spend more to make the team as a whole better ? Since the Sox signed Abreu they had to believe he was going to be good. I really do think and I said it in April and I remember fathom agreeing with me that Sox management didn't think they could compete this year after they didn't sign Tanaka. But if they had spread the Tanaka money around it's possible they could have. But you all also have to keep in mind Hahn has a long term goal of being in contention every year not just one year then fail fail fail. He knows the Sox have never made the playoffs 2 straight years and his goal is to remedy that. All the arguments about the crappy pen is really just one year of an expected rebuild. Does it suck we could possibly have contended this year and the pen sucks ? Of course . Could they have spent more money ? Definitely. But Hahn wants the right pieces for a young core. When he feels he has enough core pieces then he will make more of an effort to build around them. This wasn't the year for that as much as I hate seeing Abreu and Sale's performances wasted. Seems as if we added to the core with Abreu, Eaton and the surprise of Gillaspie .Losing Avi and Erik Johnson not stepping up hurt a bunch for evaluation purposes but I'd say if the goal was to build a younger stronger core to compete for years ahead , that this year has been a success. Some failures of young players was to be expected but realistically the bullpen failure is not a huge deal in the master plan. Toss into the mix Rodon as a big POTENTIAL core piece. The bigger failure is potential trade pieces all failing and I suppose you can add some bullpen members to that because now adding more good young core pieces is much more difficult. Now Hahn has to spend money because another year wasted trying to add guys with the idea of flipping them is another year where the young core ages.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 02:07 PM) The sad thing is there is absolutely no help coming from the minors, with regards to the bullpen, unless it's Rodon. Lack of pitching depth throughout the system has killed the Sox this year. You'll know when things are hopeless if they bring up Nestor Molina.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 02:05 PM) Every team not just the Twins Just talking about the last 3 games when they have been very bad.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 02:03 PM) I smell a Jim Johnson signing and a Guerra DFA soon.... Missing Putnam.

Twins hitters must salivate when Sox relief pitchers come in. Another Q ND.

QUOTE (flavum @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 01:35 PM) Q deserves a "5 and Fly" win. Bullpen has chance to redeem itself if Quetzalcoatl can keep the lead.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:51 PM) Avi 3-5, with one of his outs being a line out to 3rd. How soon do you think he'll be back in the Sox lineup ?

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:55 PM) Maybe Abreu can be a hero in the 9th . That's not asking too much is it ? Asking them to pitch to him might be asking too much. Damn missed the Santana HR typing this.

Maybe Abreu can be a hero in the 9th . That's not asking too much is it ? Asking them to pitch to him might be asking too much.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:48 PM) No way should he have tried going to 2nd after not running out of the box. That's the third bad base running play by Eaton in the last 2 innings. Yea he was in one of those zones where he was feeling in the groove or invincible and wanted so badly to get the go ahead run in scoring position.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:19 PM) Oh blah. We hit about 5 ropes after that. It's impossible to know what would have happened. It could be 9-4. What I know didn't happen was a DP . Hey I've crticized Robin since last year .I'm just callin' 'em like I see 'em.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:18 PM) Hawk in the booth after a Beckham hit HAHA you're pretty good with that stuff for an old dude.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:11 PM) Wow, Viciedo and Beckham with contributions this inning. Eaton got away with bad base running there, as he shouldn't have been tagging. Great minds think alike. I didnt see yours before I posted mine.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:13 PM) We're crushing the ball though this inning...the sac bunt is the only easy out they've gotten. Yeah but if he hits into a DP inning might be over eventually with less runs or different pitching changes. The sac bunt was really key.

What a great inning when Viciedo , De Aza and Beckham can all make contributions. And Alexi !

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:07 PM) Eaton :good things come in small packages. Ok everybody give Robin some credit for the sac bunt paying off.

Eaton :good things come in small packages.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 04:33 PM) Honestly I am shocked they were aggressive and pitched to him with first base open. I was going to say Gardy has lost his marbles haha. In 2 of Abreu's 3 Ab's he's taken 1st pitch fastballs right there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 01:24 PM) I look at the upcoming free agent class and am not too excited about the White Sox prospects. Either it is going to be prohibitive or a bunch of crap. I don't know why if you don't like Adam Dunn and know the Sox are looking for left handed hitting, why you would want the team to throw money at Billy Butler. He has been awful. There's always Justin Morneau if the Rox expose him to waivers. Of course he's hitting well where a lot of guys hit well in Colorado and in the NL so it' s a matter of trusting if his reemergence is real . But I know one thing the guy is not K'ing much at all. Perfect LH candidate to DH along with VMart.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 01:28 PM) Not sure why all the hype over 2015. From where I'm sitting, the Sox are still playing to make the postseason in 2014. With the offense clicking again, and a current homestand against Minnesota and Texas, I think the Sox could be as high as second in the AL Central, and above .500, over the next 5 games. And with Avisail Garcia and Lindstrom on minor league rehab assignments likely to join the team soon after that, I'm not sure why the Sox can't play well enough after that to put them in the thick of the last wildcard spot race. This is also why I'm not among those who think the Sox will dump players on waiver-wire deals. There will be plenty of time to sort out next year's lineup during the offseason. For now, I'd like to see if this Sox team can make a run. While it's tres admirable to keep the faith in your team , much as I do, certain realities have to be looked square in the eyes. Numero uno is starting pitching. We just don't have it to put together any kind of long lasting 20-25 game run nor do we have a bona fide closer or reliable setup guys in the pen. The offense is sporadic only just recently producing after a long drought after a fast start and more than likely, unless Avi really shocks us with a very high level of play, goes back to producing much less.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 12:45 PM) Today at 1:31 PM The two biggest needs for the Sox next year are: 1) A middle of the order, left handed power bat, to protect Abreu. Without that protection, opposing teams would simply neutralize Jose's bat, by going around him. 2) A right handed starting pitcher, to balance the rotation, which is dominated by southpaws. It still seems unlikely that the Sox would keep a rotation consisting of the top 4 starters all being left handed. They will need at least a #2, or #3 to balance Sale, Quintana and Rodon. Even if Danks is not gone, a RHP has to be in front of his spot in the rotation. Unless trading Alexei fills one of those two needs, I don’t see the point. There is no elite defensive replacement SS in the organization, who is ready to take his place, and of the best candidates, none are likely to be as good offensively. The $10 million that he is owed is not going to represent an obstacle to the front office spending elsewhere, and is not out of line with his value. Perhaps, by the end of next season Tim Anderson, or Rondon will be ready to inherit the SS position, but until then, I don’t see Semien as being a replacement, whom we could expect to provide Alexei’s elite defense, much less his offensive production. Additionally, since I favor trading Viciedo, Alexei being a fellow Cuban teammate for Abreu, might be an important intangible to consider. Sanchez is the best defensive second baseman in the organization, and his ability to hit from both sides of the plate make him my candidate to succeed Beckham, who most of us seem confident will be gone. I love Micah Johnson’s offensive game, but unless he can improve his defense, I’m not sure that it makes sense to sacrifice defense, up the middle, for a guy who is probably best suited to bat lead off, where the Sox already have Eaton. Even if Johnson could play LF, the Sox may need to use the opening there to make room for a LH power bat. De Aza has to be the most dispensable outfielder, and Sierra has much better tools to take his place. He’s also much younger, and would have no impact on the payroll. If you read some of the scouting reports on him, from the last 2 or 3 years, he is purported to have significant power potential. I had the impression that he was more of a defense and speed guy, but the reason that he has been considered so intriguing is, in large part, due to his power potential. Given that power potential, he provides a more attractive option than Viciedo, as well. He’s only 6 months older than Dayan, and is a very good defensive player, with speed and a great arm. Moreover, Sierra’s power is not derived from the kind of violent, big swing that Viciedo employs. That is likely to result in more contact and a better average than Dayan will be able to achieve. Neither Viciedo nor Sierra have realized their potential, and given the vastly better tools, I’d opt for giving Sierra the playing time. Viciedo does also possess a terrifc arm, but that’s the only other tool he has, aside from the ability to hit for power. As long as Sierra’s projected power potential is legitimate, why not let the player who can contribute in so many other ways, get the chance to develop it? And, of course, Sierra would not negatively impact the payroll. Although I was on board with the practically unanimous view that the Sox needed to upgrade the catching position, I’m very encouraged by Flowers’ recent ability to “square up” pitches. Ever since he donned the specs, in favor of contacts, he has really looked dangerous. This is the first time, all season, that he seems to have an idea of what he’s doing with the bat in his hands. Earlier in the year, even when he was hitting for average, he almost never barreled the ball up. We all remember that crazy streak, during which he got so many “duck snorts” and other lucky hits. I love his hitting to right field, and if this new approach allows him to have decent at bats, his power will ultimately become a factor, Tyler is extremely strong. Defensively, I don’t know how he is rated, but he passes the “eye test” for me. I like his pitch calling, and pitch blocking, and he has a strong and accurate arm. My 2015 lineup: CF Eaton SS Ramirez 1B Abreu DH The LH Power Bat? (I’m hoping that Wilkins is for real. He may be a long shot, but at least he has a better chance than a certain former star, for whom I was hoping last year) LF A.Garcia 3B Gillaspie vs RHP / Semien vs. LHP RF Sierra C Flowers 2B Sanchez I have trouble imagining that Davidson could be ready to contribute, any earlier than late next season. I'm kind of making a list of LH players right now who may fit the profile of what Hahn is looking for. Now I am no where near done with this but if the Sox want a LH OF and can save the power bat for DH . Jason Heyward may not be a bad solution. I saw another poster mention his name. He'll still be only 25 Aug. 9th and become a free agent after the 2015 season. The Sox can look to trade for him or sign him as a free agent though I'd prefer they trade for him and then if they can't resign him ...well you know the drill. He's often injured much like Ellsbury/Kemp was/is. He plays elite defense , runs well as u might expect from a guy who plays elite defense. And he might just remind Sox fans of a younger LH version of Jermaine Dye maybe without as much power though he did have 27 when he was 22. The question is much like we see with other players. Did they peak at an early age before their bodies discovered the rigors of a full season of MLB. He would play RF and Avi could be moved to LF where he's probably more suited.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 08:15 AM) He's back to having a good approach at the plate. Balls on the outer half he is trying to pound between the hole at 1st and 2nd. He's also choking up on the bat ever so slightly when he gets to 2 strikes.