CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ May 27, 2013 -> 12:02 PM) I would hope they'd start Gimenez again. They've been winning with him starting and he's been playing better than Flowers. Me too ,but I read where Ventura said Flowers should be back in the lineup today. Smardzija is RH so maybe Hector does get the start but I think Ventura views Flowers as his starting catcher. I don't think Flowers matches up well with Smardzija.

Jesse Crain extended his scoreless outings streak to 20 games. Paul Konerko is hitting .563 (9-for-16) over his four-game hitting streak. Jeff Keppinger had his seven-game hitting streak snapped Sunday. Since returning from the disabled list May 10, Dayan Viciedo is hitting .392 with three doubles, two homers, eight RBIs and 10 runs scored. Flowers will probably be in the lineup today.

What's with the title of the thread ? It's Sox/Cubs not Cubs/Sox.

Did somebody start a rebuild and forget to tell me ? Oh you guys !

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ May 26, 2013 -> 03:21 PM) You gotta compare Hector in the pen and axe in the rotation to axe in the pen and hector as a starter, you can't just compare Hector to Dylan as starters. Granted, I'm with you that it's the incorrect move but I don't think it's as absurd as you're making it. Thank you that's the whole point . Each side has merit. It's just not cut and dried as he is suggesting nor clueless or stupid.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 26, 2013 -> 03:15 PM) Chris Sale ERA when moved to the pen: 2.81 Hector Santiagos ERA when moved to pen: 2.81 Means nothing. Sale had a sore arm Santiago did not. Sale was a high draft pick whose arm needed protecting. I'm starting to think you forget what happened honestly. Look what the Nationals did with Strasburg and they had a good chance to make the World Series. I know Sale didnt' have major arm surgery but clearly he was gassed , spent w/e you want to call it at the end of the year.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 26, 2013 -> 03:07 PM) This is gold. We now have to resort to a guy being the "glue" while ignoring just about every possible statistical evidence that clearly proves who the better option is. I like Axelrod, and dont mind him in the rotation. Just not at the expense of a far better, more talented player. Uh, did you forget that whole debacle or something? How about that such a talented player is far more valuable as a starter rather than reliever. How much worse a team are we with Sale in the pen compared to being a starter? A lot. I just described it so how can I be forgetting it ? I think you are forgetting Sale ran out of gas his last 10 starts or ,so your definition of debacle or clueless or stupidity is just you continuing with your hyberbole. And I'm not ignoring who the better option MIGHT be. I have already stated Santiago has the higher ceiling a few times. I'm just focusing on what's best for the team right now. The starting pitching is solid. The bullpen is middling or worse outside of Crain and Reed. Santiago can help that as long as he doesn't keep walking people.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 26, 2013 -> 03:05 PM) 5-5 in Axelrod's starts 7-2 in Sale's 6-3 in Peavy's 0-5 in Floyd's 4-5 in Quintana's 1-0 in Danks' 1-4 in Santiago's Just glue , not MVP by any stretch of the imagination.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 26, 2013 -> 02:57 PM) You think the Sox would learn their lesson after trying to make Sale a reliever last year. Nope, the stupidity is still present. Keep shooting that gun while the chamber is empty. Sale 1st round draft pick. Was starting ,had a bit of pain Sox wanting him to rest his arm a bit is so full of stupidity it's mind boggling . Then deciding a whole 10 or so days later , he was good to start again. And he did run out of gas at the end of the year so it's not like he needed any more starts than he got last year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 26, 2013 -> 02:48 PM) This is correct. I personally can't believe Axelrod is getting major league hitters out, but he is doing his job. The Sox need bullpen help. Santiago can handle that, and has shown he doesn't need long to get back to throwing 110 pitches a game. Not only that Ax has more starts than any WS pitcher since Peavy and Sale have been scratched once each. He's been the glue.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ May 26, 2013 -> 02:07 PM) We shall see., Talk about inane . Such a clueless organization yet a lot of people seem to be in disagreement with your assessment of the situation.

Sox 14 -9 in May . Axelrod 3 wins , Santiago 1 . Now don't get me wrong , it's apparent Santiago has the higher upside as a starter but there are legit reasons to start Axelrod and pitch Santiago in relief. Surely those reasons are not clueless as you keep suggesting. That is my only beef with you. It's never just about who is better than who. The team comes 1st.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 26, 2013 -> 10:10 AM) Sox prove to be clueless again, to the surprise of no one. Keep beating that drum while the Sox keep winning.

Ax not at his best still kept us in the game. 9-3 in last 12. Dunn HR. 2 doubles each for DeAza and Viciedo. More good bullpen work.

It's so nice when Dunn hit's HR's.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 26, 2013 -> 02:03 AM) Let's hope they end up better than Bobby Brown... Oops I meant Additions

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 25, 2013 -> 11:53 PM) What's the Sox record since Robin got pissed and had the meeting? That's the sign of a good manager. He knew when to get on the team. Team has been pretty good since then. 9-5 . 8-3 in their last 11.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 25, 2013 -> 03:51 PM) Increase Danks' value for what? Nobody will trade for him until he proves he's 100% healthy and can pitch effectively with 2-3 MPH less juice on his fastball. It's going to take all of 2013 for him to re-establish that value...and if you have a $65 million veteran pitcher on a long-term contract, he's never going to end up in the bullpen (even if you could make the legitimate argument Santiago/Axelrod starting would give the White Sox a better chance to win THIS year). Axelrod wasn't ever a Top 10 prospect, or, if he was, it was probably 10th. I'll put it this way...scouts all around baseball are more likely to view him more like Phil Humber than someone they'd give up an attractive package to acquire. What are the odds that he keeps up this level of performance the entire season? There will be no value for him if they don't trade him before his weaknesses are fully exposed and other teams see him 2-3 times and figure him out. Increasing Dank's value ? Oh yea because some value is better than none ? If Ax can keep pitching well for a few months he can be dealt to a team desperately needing pitching to keep their playoff chances afloat. What we get in return is anyone's guess atm . Depends on what we will need at that time, if the plan comes to fruition. I prefer thinking of the positive outcomes of the situation. If you want to continue to think it will turn out badly, that's your prerogative.

Let's hear it for the New Edition's . Gillaspie tonight and Keppinger last night.

What happened ?

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 25, 2013 -> 11:09 AM) I know that Axelrod has done the job in the rotation. However, Santiago is the better pitcher and a better option long term. I hate Santiago in the bullpen. Not because he isn't good but because he is much more valuable as a starter. I just don't understand why they don't want the better pitcher starting. You have all said it's because they need him in the bullpen. I hate that reason. He's a starter. So start him. Have someone else take the bullpen role. I hate when this organization does this. If Santiago becomes a #3 starter it's much much more valuable than him being a lights out setup man. Obviously, Santiago is not Chris Sale, but we all had these same discussions when they prematurely put Sale in the bullpen last year. Imagine Santiago as a setup guy. Not just pitching one inning but possibly more, the 6th and 7th or the 7th and 8th. It's incredibly valuable to the Sox pen . I still have hope the Sox can compete this year. If it doesn't happen every one will get their wish to see Santiago starting. It's going to take a few months to determine . He doesn't have to start now just as Sale didn't have to start then. If you don't understand what the Sox are trying to do after I have repeatedly clarified it I don't know what else I can do. It's all about maxing Ax's value now . Might not work out . Ax might crap the bed , but with Floyd hurt and Danks just returning we have a few months to see what Ax and Danks can do to increase their value.

QUOTE (beautox @ May 25, 2013 -> 02:49 AM) My frustration with this situation as a sox fan is we've seen this organization make a similar mistake in the past with McCarthy back and forth between the rotation and the pen. Santiago is even more talented than Brandon ever was and if we're building for the future he needs to get stretched out in a similar fashion to Sale. Its also frustrating watching the sox front office this past offseason not move Floyd before he became a sunk cost and seeing what we had in both Dylan and Hector. Everything that you said (erased most of it for space sake ), I like. I'd rather get excited about the Sox future than think about tearing it apart. 5 strong in starters is incredibly good. Even in hindsight you can't say what happened with Brandon McCarthy hurt his career just because he hasn't become what we thought he might. It's also easy now to say Santiago has more talent than BMac . Santiago 's future looks good but we don't know if it will happen as is the case with so many young pitchers. The Sox really had no idea what they had in Ax. Most on the board hated him because he didn't have "good stuff". Even now ,although he has pitched beyond expectations ,we have no idea if he can continue that. The plan is to hope he can , establish some value and go from there.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 25, 2013 -> 12:42 AM) Except when/if Axelrod fails or there's an injury, who's going to fill the spot? It would conceivably take Santiago 3 weeks or so if all he does is pitch 3-4-5 times per month like in the second half season. How is that helping him build up his arm strength and endurance for the future? If some are complaining he can't go past 5 innings...and he already did that this week against a strong Red Sox line-up or in the final week of the 2012 season...then how does sitting him in the bullpen help the franchise? Whatever they choose, it should be creating the highest possible value out of him...not the least. As far as jerking a player around....that would be fine, it this was the first time. But we've seen it with Beckham, with Viciedo, there are lots of historical examples. I really don't understand your argument. What's the hurry with Santiago ? He appears to have a live arm. 3 days rest , bullpen session and still goes 6 with 9 K's against the Red Sox. He isn't going anywhere. The Sox know what they have in him. There is no reason to have him at max value right now. But there are reasons to max Ax's value right now as I have been saying. And yes you are 100% correct about a lot of historical examples of young players being jerked around. It's called baseball . It's been done by every team for over 100 years. It's part of what happens to young players if they aren't complete studs at a given position or with the bat. And it will continue to be that way.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 24, 2013 -> 09:42 PM) It seems to me Kepp is doing a lot better of late. I would think his average is pretty good the last 10 games or so. It seems like he gets multi hit games once in a while, and of course, tonight's big hit. Since Keppinger was dropped to 7th or lower in the order on 5/14, he's batting .314/.342/.444. Also Rios hitting streak goes to 18 and Gimenez with a big 2 out RBI. Thank you Robin for finally getting him back in there against a RH. Hope we see more of it. Danks pitching decently was huge even if it was the Marlins.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 25, 2013 -> 12:10 AM) Show any evidence from 2012 (after he was demoted from closer) and early 2013 that Santiago will be used as a set-up guy... To replace Thornton? That would be ONE PLAN (to get through this year competitively). Trading Thornton and investing the money back in the team. Replacing Nathan Jones or Lindstrom with Santiago? Are they really planning to do that? Otherwise, this whole idea of young starters starting to press....how is that changed by addressing the bullpen instead of the offense/starting line-up (for example, catcher)? Axelrod is the shortest RH starter in the game of baseball and has the lowest average fastball. He's worth more to the White Sox (because of his low salary) than he is in trade return. You can't trade Axelrod and getting a starting catcher in return for him. It's just not going to happen. With a premium being placed more and more on power pitching...Axelrod is fine as the last pitcher on the roster, but he's not going to help lead your rotation to the playoffs. And he's probably going to struggle more at UCSF when the weather (and offenses) start to heat up. The White Sox already made one mistake in bringing back Floyd and not trading him when they had the opportunity. Now they're making another one by utilizing Santiago incorrectly. If they're building towards the future, then Santiago really needs to be starting for the Charlotte Knights, so he doesn't have to spend 2014 wearing down in the end...like Chris Sale in the second half of 2012. There's no evidence to show Santiago won't be a mop up guy. Not a shred. Nada zip zilch. All I'm saying and have been saying is that it makes sense. I trust the Sox will see it's a waste to have Santiago as a set up guy. I don't have the time nor the inclination to look up stats , but I'll venture to say Ax has been equally as good , if not better then most 5th starters in MLB . How tall he is or how hard he throws has nothing to do with effectiveness. He's kept us in a lot of games. Any cost controlled starter is valuable. Starting pitching is always at a premium. He might be even better in the NL. I never said the Sox could get a starting catcher for him but I did say Ax and something else could get us a needed bat. Santiago is what , 23 ? His time will come. If Axelrod is ever going to be worth anything , his time has to be now. He is 27 and in his 1st year of starting in the majors. Injuries and ineffectiveness always brings starting pitching in a pennant chase to the forefront. Maybe I am overestimating his value but you are underestimating it. However, time will tell. The decision to keep him in the rotation is sound. Too much emphasis is put on a team jerking a player around. Do you think Santiago would rather be a reliever in the majors or a starter in the minors ? If he is any kind of team player, he'll accept his role because it helps the team now and for the future if Ax can continue to do what he has been doing.