CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE(StatManDu @ Jan 23, 2007 -> 05:21 AM) Today marks the anniversary of the White Sox acquisition of both Tom Seaver (1984 although retrosheet.org has it listed as the 20th) and Tom Gordon (2003). Both were established by the time they arrived on the Southside. Here is a list of pitchers who had the most career victories upon joining the White Sox (For more on the Seaver pickup go to www.whitesoxalmanac.com): MOST WINS UPON JOINING THE WHITE SOX Player Year with Sox Wins Steve Carlton..............................1986...........................314 Tom Seaver.................................1984.........................273 Red Ruffing..................................1947..........................270 Early Wynn..................................1958..........................235 Chief Bender................................1925..........................212 Jerry Reuss..................................1988..........................198 Claude Osteen..............................1975.........................189 Charlie Hough...............................1991.........................186 Jim Kaat.......................................1973...........................179 Jerry Koosman..............................1981..........................179 Dave Stieb....................................1993..........................174 Clark Griffith.................................1901...........................168 David Wells...................................2001..........................166 Danny Darwin................................1997..........................162 Scott Sanderson.............................1994.........................154 Ron Reed.......................................1984..........................146 Doug Drabek..................................1997..........................137 Frank Lary......................................1965..........................126 Gary Bell........................................1969..........................119 Ken Hill...........................................2000.........................117 Tom Gordon................................2003..........................106 Richard Dotson................................1989.........................106 Ellis Kinder ......................................1957.........................102 Dotson came up with the Sox and spent most of his career with them. How could he get on this list? All but maybe 15-20 of his career win total came playing with the Sox

I don't care who gets its as long as he wins more than he loses. And that goes for the rest of the rotation and bullpen.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 25, 2007 -> 04:48 PM) No; GGs are insignificant. Good fielders sometimes win them, bad fielders sometimes win them. But they shouldn't EVER be used to justify whether or not a player can play good defense. Okay? That doesn't mean a whole lot, though, as there are a LOT of guys who can do a better job than Mackowiak in CF. Really? Tell me when Derek Jeter was ever the best defensive SS in a year when he won a GG, and I'll find you a better defender. The fact that you are doing anything at all to defend the GG cracks me up. Rex Hudler? Is that you? Oh I get your point now. So we might as well take away all the GG's won by multiple GG winners likes Brooks Robinson, Ozzie Smith, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, Ichiro Suzuki, Andruw Jones, Al Kaline, J.T. Snow ,Ryne Sandberg, Tony Gwynn, Andre Dawson, Mike Schmidt, Johnny Bench, Luis Aparcio, Barry Bonds, Jim Kaat , Paul Blair , Carl Yastrzemski and Greg Maddux because they are insignificant in determining if they are good fielders or not. Better tell all the baseball managers and coaches who watch the players day in and day out and do the voting that they need their eyes checked because you are the definitive authority on who should get an award for fielding. Lets call it the " CWSGuy406 One and Only Truly Deserving Platinum Glove and I Will Laugh in your Face if you Don't Agree with Me Award." So every time a journalist lists the gold gloves a player has won he's just misleading the public that these awards mean anything. So its the journalists, managers and coaches who all perpetuate this preposterpous notion that Gold Gloves actually mean that any of these players are extremely competent. Thats a lot of wrong people. I'm glad you're around to set me straight. Thank you so much. Please let me know when you give out your awards so I can alert the national media. OK but the Sox didnt pick up any of those guys did they ? I did say "ONE of the best" See theres this quote button thingy so you can quote me correctly and then you proceed to misquote me .

QUOTE(Straycats @ Jan 25, 2007 -> 03:08 PM) I can't wait to buy a Erstad jersey... He has been one of my fav players so it is totally awesome that he is on the Sox and I believe he will have a great season Whats wrong with you ? Don't u know you're not allowed to have favorite players when it doesn't help the team win one iota ? Check the stats . He's old (ancient at 32), often injured. His Gold gloves are meaningless. His hustle, desire, and leadership skills are useless. You are totally uninformed and your baseball knowledge sorely lacking and you shouldnt have been allowed to join Sox talk. This is a place for elitist fans only !

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 24, 2007 -> 01:15 PM) You want me to go through every list and pick out bad choices? I certainly can. Those were the off-of-top-of-my-head GG winners. The point is that YOU think that a GG means a player is good on defense, when in fact it's not true at all. Worse, you think that a guy winning a GG in the past means that the player can still play at that level. I'm not saying Erstad never was a GG caliber player, I'm saying that age and injuries have most likely diminished his skills out there. BTW, the Palmiero point apparently went right over your head. He played less than 30 games that year in the field, and he won a GG. That should tell you all you need to know about what it means to win one. And if you think Jeter is a good defensive SS, then I really don't feel compelled one bit to say anything more on the issue. I still don't get your point . Does winning a glove glove mean you're an above average fielder , an average fielder , a poor fielder ? My point was Erstad would be a better option then Mackowiak, thats it plain and simple. A gold glove signifies excellence. Wether or not you deserved it the year you won it is of little consequence. At one point in time you were one of the best at your position. All awards are debatable but they usually are deserving. I think we both agree that Erstad shouldn't be an everyday CF but its not a bad option for the 4th outfielder. Its a decent move for the money.

There's just too much history in my family that connects me to the Sox a lot more than the Bears. Always playing baseball as a kid , going to Sox games , seeing dad and brothers in the program promo for family day. Baseball is in my blood. Sox all the way.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jan 24, 2007 -> 10:06 AM) Yup. Like Derek Jeter winning one this year. Oh, right, he's not very good defensively at all. Or like Raffy Palmiero winning a GG in 1999 with all of 28 games played in the field that season. Whats your point , that all Gold glovers suck ? I already said there are exceptions but its not like Jeter or Palmeiro deserved "lead" gloves is it ? 18 guys get gold gloves every year. You picked 2 guys and go back to 1999 so you're going back 7 seasons. 7 x 18 =126 gold glovers. You're about naming 61 more guys short who YOU didn't think deserve it of making me change my mind. QUOTE(qwerty @ Jan 23, 2007 -> 10:12 PM) You know the signing is pointless when multiple pages in the thread is discussing trivia ( no offense to anyone who participated in the trivia). Will there be a day that anyone other than wite and kalapse make any sense in the foreseeable future? 2 guys u agree with make sense , the rest of us are senseless. Classy ! Debate the move. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back for your vast knowledge of baseball.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 23, 2007 -> 09:52 PM) Gold gloves are the about the WORST argument you can use to defend a player defensively. Torii Hunter won a gold glove this year based upon reputation, and Derek Jeter has won back to back gold gloves because he's a really good hitter. And how much does it matter how good he is defensively if he can't stay healthy when in CF? If u think winning gold gloves is one of the worst arguments a person can use to say sumone is/was a great defensive player then you are lost. Sure I'll admit that some are based on reputation or maybe above average defense combined with above average hitting. But winning a GG signifies the cream of the crop defensively and I cannot see winning a GG as anything but a positive thing. Sometimes getting a gold glove based on reputation is just a makeup for not winning it earlier in your career when some more established player was winning it. It all evens out. I would venture to say that all GG winners are above average fielders and most are truly the best full time players at their position. And again I'll say it for the 3rd time. I don't see him playing too much centerfield.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 23, 2007 -> 08:34 PM) By the previous logic (ie: citing GG that were won 5 years ago as evidence to a players capabilities defensively) Jim Edmonds, Ken Griffey Jr., Shawn Green and Steve Finley are all currently above average defenders. One more thing, if Darin Erstad starts a single game at DH next season then this was a terrible signing. Funny that u have my whole post in front of you but somehow you reckon that I said previous GG's mean "current" above average defender. What I actually said or implied was that he would be a better option then Mackowiak in center since he has won 2 gold gloves at the position compared to 0 for Mac ( and I'll go out on a limb to say Mac will never win any GG's in center). Gold Glove winners have intangibles such as getting a good jump, a good read, taking good routes , hitting cutoff men, and throwing to the right base more consistently than a player like Mac. That consistency will save ballgames. Those are the little things that mean so much. You do not lose these intangibles because you have lost a few steps. But because of the lost speed I doubt he'll play much center unless the time off last year did a lot of healing. He's 32 yrs. old not 42. He's very capable of off season conditioning to strengthen his body. The Sox brass has to be pretty satisfied in his current condition to even consider signing him.

I'm not unhappy at all with this signing. He hardly played at all last year to have ankle surgery . Many are saying he's an old 32 yr. old. I think with all the time off last year his body had plenty of time for rest and recuperation. He's won 3 gold gloves in his career. 2 in center and 1 at 1st base. So for those saying he's now comparable to Mac in center and I'll ask how many GG's does Mac have in center ? He'll get more AB's combined in left, right, 1st and DH then he will in center . He still has the tools just not the speed to play much centerfield. With Pod's injury and recovery time Erstad could see a lot of action early in the season. After Pods is fully recovered Erstad will play 1st base if Paulies hip forces him to play a few less games at 1st and more at DH. He'll spell all 3 outfield positions. He's a team player with a great attitude and does what it takes to win. He does the little things well (bunt ,hit and run ,move runners over). Remember the Sox have a bevy of young outfielders (Sweeney, Owens, Terrero , even Fields ). If Erstad has a injury or proves he's not capable of the demands the Sox will put on him, they will bring up the OF in the minors who is having a good year. I'm sure whatever salary he signed for is disposable as is he if worst comes to worst.

QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Jul 5, 2006 -> 07:17 AM) Roeper is great for 2 reasons...big time Sox fan, and big time Stern fan. I'm definately picking up the book. David ? Howard ? Isaac ? Otto?

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jan 15, 2007 -> 12:46 PM) Also, what if we sign these players to market contracts and they all get injured? Now what? How's about this...when you or Cali become GMs, do whatever you want. Until then, deal with it. Root for the team they put on the field, or find another one. Whoa listen ! Argue your point. I respect your opinion on the baseball matters that are being discussed here , but you are way out of line here ! Where do u come off saying if I disagree with you or the White Sox philosophy (so far) in the offseason I should find another team to root for ? I don't have a right to disagree with management ? GM's have never made bad moves before ? I'm supposed to agree with every move they make or I should root for another team because you don't like my opinion ? Stick with arguing your side of the arguement and go play dictator somewhere else.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 02:51 PM) .245, 18 home runs, ~60 RBI. Why so low, you may ask? Well, y'all may remember how a few months ago the White Sox advised Mr. Crede to undergo back surgery. Mr. Boras advised Mr. Crede to rehab without surgery so as to avoid having a back surgery on his record when he hits FA. Mr. Crede listened to Mr. Boras instead of the team medical staff. Joe's back went out in September last year, and IIRC his average that month was under the Mendoza line. I think he made the wrong choice in ignoring the team's advice and following Boras's advice, and by the middle of the season, we will start to see that. Ouch ! You sound as negative as I have been in my posts lately. Let's hope Joe 's back cooperates and everything else falls into place to make 2007 another year to remember for the team.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 09:10 PM) Cali, I did not mean to get personal with you,and that was not my intent. From the little I have seen you post, you seem to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the Sox. Just thought I would post that before I read your whole post. IMO, you're going too far. To call the Sox the Flordia Marlins is a bit of a stretch, and that's being nice. What some Sox fans forget is we will still have a 100 million dollar payroll going into 2007. Actually calling us the Florida Marlins should be construed as a compliment. If we completely tear the team down and win another World Series in 5 years that means Kenny's plan of action this year and the years to follow (if his philosophy doesn't change again) will have come to fruition. They have 2 World Series victory's in their short time as a franchise do they not ?

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 08:51 PM) Just keep in mind too, that just because Kenny speaks negatively, that doesn't mean some or all of those players won't be kept. They may or may not be. But what he says in the press is all part of the poker game. When all is said and done, on April 1, I'd be really surprised if this team wasn't in a better position to win than they were when the 2006 season ended. I have kept that in mind which is why I have hope they can resign JD. But with the kind of money Zito got and the Scott Boras factor regarding JC I'd be hard pressed to think they will get resigned. I've got my fingers crossed that Kenny's got one more major move up his sleeve that will bring some ML ready talent that will hold off the rebuilding process for the coming year. As it stands right now we have a few too many holes and inpending free agents to think next year is anything but the start of the "we'll be in another World Series in 5 years when some of these players we traded for pan out if we're really lucky " mode.

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 07:18 PM) A market inefficiency. Quality to all-star major leaguers who could be had at a very good price. The free agent market was way undervaluing these players. This is not the case right now. A career .300 hitting lefty catcher for $2.5 million. Maybe you could get him for 3 times that right now. More the type of prices we got JD, AJ, Gooch, etc, now you could not get players far inferior to them for anywhere near those prices. No. It's the opposite of that. It's a regular face in philosophy. Exploiting market inefficiencies. The market is rediculously overpaying for free agents in general and pitching in particular. I have given Kenny every credit in the world for his ability to put the World Championship team together. Evrything fell into place very nicely. Many players had quality years or just did what they were capable of doing as they had proven they could do in the past. We gave up major league talent for major league talent and pulled the rabbit out of the hat after reaching into it every year for 88 years and coming up empty. I dont pretend to imagine I have more knowledge of how to put together a world champ than guys who get paid to do it for a living. But I do recognize a rebuilding when I see it and will not pretend it is anything but that because of blind allegiance to the franchise.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 06:05 PM) Trading away devolved Major League talent for high potential minor leaguers is always going to be a risk. There is no way around that. However your point doesn't really make too much sense. What are you implying? That since we don't know for sure what the return of Crede or Mark would be, we shouldn't trade them, and re-sign them for whatever it costs? What are you suggesting? I'm suggesting a balance. Everything Kenny is quoted as saying in regards to signing Buerhle , Crede and Dye is negative. If the market has changed that much how do ever manage to keep anyone once they become players who are worth big money. How do you attract big names to Chicago ? Go read the "how I became a Sox fan" thread and see how many people , in the limited number of responses said they are Sox fans because of Frank Thomas. Big time players attract fans. Do not go telling me my response doesn't make sense . That is personal . I can argue my point as can you without implying my train of thought is convoluted. I realize the course the Sox are taking and can argue pro or con on the point. I know its not the GM's job to make the fans happy per se but that certainly is a consideration. The happier the fans are the more they come to games. The more they come to games the more money they can put into the team. But oh no now the market has changed and attendance means nothing. If I wanted to track down quotes by Williams and Reinsdorf I'm sure I could about once the fans get their butts in the seats we can spend more money. I am truly amazed winning a world series once in 88 years and everyone forgets decades of White Sox incompetence. If baseball historians had to pick one team and call it the laughingstock of baseball it would be the Sox. I can see both sides of the argument very clearly and can understand givng Kenny the benefit of the doubt because of market conditions. However baseball and White Sox history tells me that our window of opportunity is officially closed and the rebuilding has begun. We are now the Florida Marlins after their 1st world series victory. Lets just hope the course of action pays dividends as soon as theirs did and doesnt take another 88 years.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 05:35 PM) It's all about cycles. The only way you can keep trading prospects and making splashes in the FA market is to have an enormous payroll. If you can't do that, then you can't keep using the same formula. Doing that will only work for so long. Kenny built the team for a 2004-2007 run. That was/is the window. Every team has a window. If you don't prepare for the future, it will close very quickly. For me, the goal of Williams off-season has been to keep the 2007 club competitive, but also try his best to secure the future success of the Sox. It's a very tricky thing to do, and I think he has done a pretty good job. I'm still not that happy with the return from Philly, but I trust the Sox judgment. And If Kenny kept all the big names to keep the fans happy, we would either have a 200 million dollar payroll by keeping Garcia-Buehrle-Dye, or they would all leave together, and because we didn't make trades to acquire players to fill their holes, we are looking at a 60-70 win season in 2008 and beyond. A very tricky thing indeed ! We've still got a lot of talent but you admitted you didnt like the return in the Garcia trade, so lets say our return on Crede ,Buerhle and Dye or whoever else is traded or becomes a free agent is just as negligible and the pitchers don't develope like we all hope they do. Then we're still looking at your 60-70 win season in 2008 and beyond.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 04:32 PM) Trading Carlos Lee allowed us to sign most of those guys as we dumped a lot of salary with that trade. True but again we signed good players who for one reason or another weren't worth as much as they could have been. So along with the signings of JD, AJ, Tadahito and El Duque we got Pods and Vizcaino in the trade, all major league talents furthure proving my point of Kenny's dislike for prospects. So all of a sudden putting so much stock in prospects is an about face in philosophy that has shocked and dismayed many fans.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 08:52 AM) Fiscal responsibility led to the 2005 championship. Explain it to me a little more clearly. Are you referring to letting Magglio go? If so Magglio was injured . It wasn't as much fiscal responsibilty as it was common sense. We signed Dye , AJ, Tadahito, and EL Duque all veterans who'd proven they were good players but had recent question marks. Dye had injuries , AJ was a troublemaker , El Duque was aging and injured and Gooch never played a day of major league baseball. I'm probably not remembering off the top of my head the other signings of other key players that led to the Championship. Right now its the exact opposite. We are not signing the players who brought us the ring. Buerhle and Crede look like goners for sure . I'm holding out some hope that the Sox can sign JD. Kenny knows this fiscal responsiblity plan is all contingent on the development and a fairly quick development of these young pitchers. Also someone explain to me how a guy who built a World Champ trading away our future because after all prospects are just prospects and look damn smart doing it ,can now put all his faith in a boatload of prospects. I am not advocating signing mediocrity for rich long term contracts but if the market has changed and 9 out of 10 GMs give pitchers more then 3 year contracts how can we compete if we don't give out contracts commensurate with the rest of baseball. Who will want to sign with us ? I am forever grateful for the World Championship but that doesnt mean that Kenny will work that magic again. When you fail to pull the rabbit out of the hat the rabbit ends up in the cellar. I hope Kenny can still work his mojo when he's completely changed his M.O.

I guess I'm too old fashioned. I long for the days that being a baseball fan meant you discussed baseball and not contracts. Why is it always the White Sox , no matter who the owner, who become the gods of fiscal responsibility ? If ever there was a time for the White Sox to NOT bring up the inflated market its now. If we can't splurge a little after having won a world series , with attendance and merchandising being at all time highs, will we be ever be able to consistently play with the big boys ? If Sox history has taught us anything its that you don't win with cheap owners. 2007 might be the last year the Sox will be in contention for a while so enjoy it while you can.

QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 07:18 AM) Trading away our best prospects in 1959 & 60 for way past prime aging players, we traded John Romano, Earl Battey, Norm Cash, and John Callison for players like Roy Sievers and Gene Freese That damn Kenny Williams ! Always trading our prospects !

Born into it. Dad and his dad both Sox fans as is my slightly older brother. Johnny Mostil (centerfielder for the Sox in the 1920's) was supposedly a distant cousin. Growing up favorite player Ken Berry (CF) . I've always worn 16 on any baseball uniform I've worn since then because of him including my newest jersey in a softball league that starts in February. I'll be playing at the ripe old age of 49. My love for the game starts and ends with the White Sox.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 11, 2007 -> 08:47 AM) That leaves us with no backup in CF, which is a situation I just can't imagine KW putting this team in again, given that I think having Mack in CF last year cost us a playoff berth. And besides, Ozzie uses his bullpen the least in baseball anyway, and that includes 2005 when El Duque kept falling apart in the 5th starter slot. Ozzie lives and dies by his starting rotation, which it's a safe bet he'll do again this year. Do u really think the Sox are loading up with all these power arms so Ozzie can ride his starters again ? I'm not saying I disagree with you but I think you'll see Ozzie dipping into the bullpen a bit more than he did the last few years unless the starters kick ass and the bullpen sucks.

5 time All-star. 3 times top 3 in MVP voting. 5 time top 10 in MVP voting. In strike season became 1st major leaguer ever to hit 50 HR's and 50 doubles. In 2nd season with the Sox he hit .328, 49 HR's, 48 doubles , 152 RBI's, 399 total bases in what was arguably one of the best seasons ever by a White Sox. Everything you mentioned was done in only 12 seasons before an degenerative arthritic hip forced him to retire.