CaliSoxFanViaSWside

Just how I feel about it.

Moose and Dickerson say hello.

I like to be thorough when communicating. I'm not tied into any particular way. We all have aour preferences .I just want enough quality guys to be signed for the best team possible within whatever payroll constraints the Sox have. I'm not going to complain if it ends up different which it will as long as whatever they do ends up with a good record and seeing good results from more young guys like we have seen with Gio, Moncada and Eloy.

If Wheeler can be had for 4 or 5 years and Ryu 2 or 3 that isn't crippling from a payroll standpoint. The point is we need to trust that the lineup will produce much better than last year with some minimal but inexpensive quality stopgaps I trust the Robert and Madrigal to be good next year more than I trust or believe that Kopech, Cease or Lopez become good next year. That's my main reason for wanting more pitching and the fact that you can go deeper in the playoff with a solid rotation more than a solid lineup. I don't think it's possible to upgrade both a lot. Concessions to payroll have to be made somewhere so I made them in the lineup' Maybe someone should do a poll and see what the rest of the posters think about who could be a breakout type player in 2020. List Robert , Madrigal, Collins, Lopez, Cease and Kopech or even Mercedes Give people the choice to list them as 1st choice 2nd choice and third choice. Robert probably easily wins that poll but the 2nd, 3rd and 4th guys will be interesting. Maybe the poll shouldn't say breakout but instead say above league average or something along those lines.

You can never have enough starting pitching.I think we saw an example of that in that famous thread that asked if we had too much pitching. If you want to win a World Series you need 3 studs. The less choices or options you have to choose among those potential studs just limits your options. Ryu might not require a deal longer than 3 years. That's very doable for a Cy Young type candidate. Rodon isn't an option beyond 2021 so he's not really a long term option. You have to assume at least one injury . Not having any starting pitcher get injured isn't very likely and as I said before Kopech Cease Lopez and Dunning all of them have a long way to go to become good reliable starting pitchers. My way only Lopez is a casualty but will get plenty of starts if Kopech and Cease spend time back in the minors which is also likely especially for Kopech and his innings limit. Otherwise Cease is your number 4 and Kopech your 5 to help limit his innings. If someone blows their arm or sucks ,which always seems to happen , why wait to 2021 to fix it when you can have the depth this year to combat the problems associated with injuries and very young untested pitchers. 2020 just becomes another year of waiting for the rebuild to work and wasting core position players years.

Yes they won't have a 6 man rotation but what if Kopech starts in the minors for however long it takes him to get his stuff back then can't pitch at the end of the season because of an innings limit and the Sox are contending ? What if Cease gets sent back down because he's ineffective and he too might not be ready to pitch in the post season and all the innings that would involve. What if one of the top 5 get injured fora long stretch ? To me it's just common sense that with only 1 quality starter added that the rest are a lot of big ifs. Those big ifs can be given time to develop with adding 2 quality pitchers. I don't think the Sox can make the playoffs counting on Kopech, Cease and Lopez , not yet anyway, unless one of them becomes a stud this year . When we talk about being able to compete next year the biggest question marks are in the starting pitching, I think the lineup and bullpen can be upgraded for minimal dollars with a few minor but quality additions like Dickerson and Holt plus Robert and Madrigal and a big year from Eloy and Moncada.. The Sox aren't going to be able to fix every hole and since pitching is the most obvious need in order to contend it should get the most money thrown at it.

But I think I am also playing the long game. Among Kopech, Cease, Lopez and Dunning we can realistically hope 2 of them are good enough to be a No.1 through 3 starting pitcher for years to come. By signing Wheeler and Ryu it gives them time, be it next year, 2021 or 2022 ,to become what we hope . Ryu has been projected by fangraphs to get only a 2 year contract but I can see him getting 3 years so he might not be as expensive as you think. In the event that none of them become a 1 or 2 type you still have a top 3 of Wheeler, Gio and Ryu. If they do become everything we hope any excess can be traded.

He can get more than that . That's barely higher than his salary last year. I don't get expect anyone to sign this early while barely getting a raise during free agency after he had a good year when he can play so many positions competently. I know he had injuries last year but he should be able to get $5M a year for 2 years minimum.

But the rotation would include Cease Kopech and Giolito just with Wheeler and Ryu without the need for Nova/Teheran when you have Lopez. For the 1st half of the season if Kopech goes back to the minors it's Lopez and depending on how Kopech does in the minors and Lopez does in the rotation you can pick among the 2 but ultimately Kopech will have to be shut down. If one of the top 2 get injured in your scenario (along with Nova) and Kopech getting shut down it becomes 1. Gio or Stras/Cole, 2.Cease, 3. Lopez 4. Nova 5. Rodon or Dunning down the stretch. Diminishing returns only applies in the best case scenario and with so much youth and people coming back from injuries that just isn't likely. I'll take the starting pitching depth and risk Collins and McCann at catcher put Dickerson in RF and instead of Moose maybe Brock Holt as a solid bench piece that can play infield or OF and roll with the lineup with just those few additions along with the Robert and Madrigal adds also.

I don't think the Sox have starting pitching depth as much as you probably think. We certainly have the potential for starting pitch depth but how long that takes is in question, Adding Wheeler and Ryu gives us the depth that I am questioning because the unpredictability of youth is removed which is more important when wanting to compete in a hurry. 2 guys who can both be good with the youth ,should one break out ,allows insurance against someone getting injured. With Cole or Strasburg alone an injury can be devastating especially to Cole or Strasburg considering all the extra post season games they pitched. I feel more comfortable having the potential Big Three of Gio, Wheeler and Ryu than having a big 2 of Cole/Stras and Gio., The bottom 5 guys ( Kopech, Cease, Lopez, Rodon and Dunning) are just too unpredictable at this time to consider them enough depth to win a division or go far in the playoffs. Wheeler Ryu Giolito Kopech Cease Lopez Rodon Dunning Rodon and Dunning shouldn't be counted on for much of anything this year except to get back to pitching and maybe give the bullpen a boost in the 2nd half or with Dunning get starters innings back in the minors and see if he can regain his once promising career. With Lopez perhaps limited to the bull pen it's not perfect for his development but maybe he would start the season in the rotation while Kopech starts in the minors and makes a good impression. Kopech will be on an innings limit anyway so down the stretch if the Sox can compete losing Kopech won't hurt as much with either Lopez or Rodon to replace him. Right now Rodon isn't a long term piece so anything we get will be gravy . Having the pitching depth to trade from is also a plus if we all of a sudden have too much pitching from all being good and uninjured in 2020. Odds of that happening probably 500-1.

Yea I guess with Murph back they figured they had to but sure would be nice if they had just found a way to keep him up.

If the Sox could get Wheeler and Ryu I'd be doing handsprings. We have no idea if Gio can be the Gio of last year consistently and we still have no clue on how good Kopech, Cease, Lopez , Dunning and Rodon will be and how long it will take them to reach a plateau. After that they could sign Rocky, Bullwinkle , Natasha and Boris for all the other positions.

No chance Dickerson becomes Jay unless you just mean injuries preventing him from playing Jay was older and never was the hitter Dickerson is and now he's even better. Injuries just prevented him from showing it but when he was playing he had a very very good .905 OPS. If he had as many AB's as Castellanos, Puig and Calhoun and maintained that . 905 OPS he might be looking at a 3yr/$50M contract instead of perhaps 1/$10M plus incentives. The longer term commitment is a problem as we both mentioned since Betts and Springer both become available next year. If you can get Dickerson for a year then you can go after those guys in 2021.

I don't think he'll be expensive or require anything longer than 2 years or even one year with incentives plus an option which is very appealing for a guy with a lot to prove and or the signing team who could get a really good hitter for a bargain.

Wondering about your rationale for rating the OF's as you do. With his youth and how he showed he can hit away from Detroit he seems like a good choice except for his defense which is a big concern for some since keeping Robert healthy will be a priority and sticking him between 2 subpar OF's seems like a bad idea. The bat however is the best of the bunch and could be elite now. Dickerson easily is the best hitter of the remaining 3, Career .832 OPS. Made changes to become more of a contact hitter 2 years ago and it showed that he can still hit for power with that approach . Not Castellanos type power maybe not even Puig or Calhoun power but can't be sure because those guys got a lot more AB's than Dickerson last year because Dickerson was injured. which hurts his FA status but helps a team who can see he's a much better hitter now. He also won a gold glove in left field in 2018 so even though he never played RF he's shown a good ability to play the OF. He's probably the best example of balancing hitting , fielding and consistency of the last few years. Being a lefty who can also hit lefty pitching also helps . If he can stay healthy I'd expect a .300+ BA. .850 OPS and .340 OBP. Perhaps 20-25 HR. He also wouldn't need to be a long term commitment like Castellanos will probably be. I don't like a guy like Calhoun who sucked as a hitter 2 out of the last 3 years. Also don't like Puig who is a loose cannon at best and a potential clubhouse cancer at worst.

It's a very good sign they could finally beat Vegas and Fleury especially in Vegas and coming from a 2 goal deficit. . It's a really good sign that the change they made is working. They are still lousy on D but at least now they are playing to their strength which is offense and goaltending. Also nice to finally see the defense get a few goals. Back at .500 after playing around for the 1st month of the season. Always love to see (Whatsup ) Dach score.

I know in late June his velocity was better last year than it was at any time the last 2 year. It wasn't just the mileage ,he had that dirt bike accident 2 years ago. I don't know what his final stats looked like but he might not be as bad as you think.

I think I have a Scott Coolbaugh baseball card from 1990.

Too early for the hot seat and a shakeup did occur but not a player shakeup. After the last road trip. the Hawks changed their scheme about how they exited the D-zone. The run they went on at the end of last year bought him some time . They added some good players and now Boqvist and Dach look like they will be sticking around. Seems like the new guys need time to gel . I've liked what I've seen from Kubalik, Nylander ,and Carpenter. I know Maata isn't a favorite here but he's only a -1 and doesn't take penalties. DeHaan is a +3 and also doesn't take too many penalties. Lehner has been great. On paper this Hawks team should be better Looks like the Hawks opened the season playing a more defensive minded game maybe because their defensemen are slow and can't score . That scheme however stifled the offense specifically with how they exited the D-zone, So after the last road trip and perhaps with the urging from players, Collition changed the scheme to allow quicker exit from the D-zone because it seemed clear the offensive guys said too many dump ins and they had no flow. So the shakeup was in changing the scheme. Seems to be paying dividend right away . Hawks are 2-0-1 since they switched it. Kane is back on a streak getting 7 points in those 3 games and the power play seems to be much better. If they can continue to play well on the penalty kill without giving up a a crap ton of SOG 5 on 5 they should start playing much better. But as we can see from that last game against Toronto they took penalties and gave up too many SOG and Toronto ended up with 57 SOG with 26 in the third period. Lehner had to be spectacular to pull that game out. So now the players can create more and as Kane goes so go the Hawks. There was a reason Toews had a much better year last year and DeBrincat got 40 goals so if we're now going to see that again I'm all for it. It should also help all the other forwards because the lines have more offensive depth than last year. I give Colliton and the players a lot of credit for communicating . Glad Colliton is the kind of coach who isn't afraid to try something different and if it's not working to go back and change it. Hopefully it keeps working and if they are better than last year, which I think they are, perhaps they will start winning a lot more games now. Would be cool if the new changes free up Dach and Boqvist more and increases their playing time. https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/blackhawks/jeremy-colliton-explains-schematic-change-and-why-blackhawks-made-it

If Rendon turned down 7/$210M seems and doesn't want to be playing baseball at 36 yrs old doesn't it seem likely that he just could 've told the Nat's give me $200M for 5 yrs. and it's settled ? Or even 5/$175-200M ? Why test the market at all if 5 years is all the years you want ? $35-40M AAV might be more than the Ntas want to go considering the luxury tax perhaps ?

Which is odd to me. They spent so much on Robert ,an IFA , right around $50M, and that included a lot of their own money along with the bonus pool money. Yet the bonus pool money which is given to them by the league right , hasn't produce anything. You'd think someone would realize those fairly minimal investments could produce someone as good as Robert or better for much much lower and you then only spend your own money on the scouting or running an academy or whatever other teams do to get a foothold in LATAM. But I also seem to remember before they signed Robert the Sox got a big chunk of money again from the league for another reason and it was something the league gave every team. Money for selling the rights to streaming maybe ? Hmm so basically I'm suggesting they really didn't spend their money on Robert but used the money the MLB gave them to acquire him and accepted the penalties because they don't really care that much about the investing their own resources in IFA.

You could also list the search for finding undervalued assets by listing all he scrubs he brought in hoping someone would break out. AJ Reed, Palka, Gillaspie, Manny Banuelos, Dylan Covey Ervin Santana . You could probably find another 10 names some acquired by trade like Banuelos who you did list , others being waiver claims. It's a pretty big failure not to find a diamond in the rough when 4 or 5 of them seem to pop up every year. Cleveland found Luplow and Mercado. Dodgers found a few besides Max Muncy. Astros scammed the Dodgers for Yordan Alvarez. Maybe you put this all under player development /talent evaluation. Tampa does it all the time . Oaklands pretty good at it too. Maybe many of those stiffs are listed in the negative FA values. I haven;t checked the Sox Machine article. A good way to find most transactions is just google it by year such as "2019 White Sox player transactions" and see who has the most comprehensive list.

Pretty testy aren't we ? In case you missed it. Because you surely missed my point entirely. I am not saying Mazara would be a good choice nor comparing him as a player to Yelich. I am using Yelich as an examples who became more than what we thought they were and how long that process can take.He went from good to very good and in the last 2 years to elite. If it's your position that young players cannot be more than what you have already seen then it is you who should never be taken seriously. Mazara was productive at age 21 in the majors. He obviously has talent if he can do that. The problem is he has only gotten slightly better . If you want to contend now there are much better choices but there is very little the Sox can do in free agency or trades to overcome the lack of depth and the many holes the team currently have. If any one is counting on Cease, Kopech or Lopez to be great next year you will most likely be disappointed. You cannot win with good hitting alone. I m only advocating the need to continue to look for undervalued assets more than I am advocating Mazara as a top choice for RF. Free agency alone and trading young assets will not put them there or keep them there. It's easy for you to say as an ignorant fan to just buy whoever you want. The Sox are not the Yankees or Dodgers or Red Sox . They will reach the top of the payroll iceberg fairly quickly that way and the farm more than likely will be rated much lower when Robert and Madrigal graduate so the farm is getting pretty barren . I will continue to say the Sox need to operate more like Tampa Bay when meathead fans say just buy who we want as if we were the Yankees or Red Sox. Even Boston realized how well run the Rays were when they hired Chaim Bloom , a key figure in Tampa Bays success at using a low payroll.

That and his injuries last year to his shoulder of his throwing arm and foot and the fact he doesn't play RF but it's hard to ignore that .900 OPS in the 260 AB's he did have and the fact he has become a much better hitter going for more contact without sacrificing power . With him it's once again me looking for an undervalued asset. I just don't think the Sox are in any position with the amount of unproven youth they have to pushing for the playoffs in 2020. They also are not in the position to ignore or trade young assets like Collins or Mercedes who have untapped potential to become the next Big Papi or Edgar Martinez both who became monsters when they were 27. People may laugh at that but it's happened . Big Papi was undervalued by Minnesota despite showing a lot of potential from age 21 to 26. People would also have laughed that Marcus Semien was a potential MVP candidate too. It's also crazy laughable the Sox continued to give AB's to Castillo and Sanchez down the stretch . At that point who the hell cared about Castillo and Sanchez when we needed to know more about Mendick and Collins. A few extra wins only hurt draft position when a guy like Mercedes could've been given a look along with the aforementioned AB's Collins and Mendick could've used.

This and also there ate literally 100's of examples of guys who broke out between the ages of 24-27 in baseball history. They could go from good players to great players like Yelich or go from nothing to good players or even great players. Ignoring that possibility and continuing to sign veteran free agents who's upside is behind them hurts payroll and the possibility of finding the undervalued youth like Tampa Bay does.