CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 07:58 PM) Sure. Nobody should have ever been down on him. Why? His pitch selection. His speed. His bat speed. The eye test. I have been quiet for this whole thread, To be fair the eye test also told us he swung and missed a lot of pitches and was striking out at an alarming rate and if you can't put the bat on the ball that speed just makes a bigger woosh when you don't hit the pitches. I never voiced my opinion because I am THAT guy who when guys start off hot I love them like Delmonico and the infamous Brent Morel when he hit 9 HR's one September. And when they do poorly I take the wait and see approach like with Moncada and Avi ,although with Avi I was pretty much always arguing with everyone and still do.

Ok I know its way after the game was over but I couldn't help myself. Moncada did a lot of what made him the #1 prospect. He homered and hit 3 singles, drove in 1, walked twice, stole a base and scored 5 runs. Moncada raised his BA to .229 which is a far cry higher than it had been just a week ago. Abreu was 4/5 all singles and drove in 2 while scoring 3 runs. Jose raised his BA to .308 most likely the highest it has been all year and is creeping closer to that 100RBI season which we know he covets. Avi was 5 for 5 with his 17th HR , 1 walk and 7 RBI. Avi now batting .333 probably the highest it has been since some time in May. One of Avi's hits ( the last one) was the kind we have seen a few times this year, Yes it was an infield hit, he has plenty of those. It was one of those where the unsuspecting infielder took his time with a routine grounder and Avi beat it out. Quite extraordinary for such a big guy who also isn't left handed. Tim Anderson also continued his hot hitting going 3/7 . Sox pounded out 25 hits among them 21 singles. From MLB.com : Garcia's five-hit, seven-RBI game is the first by a White Sox player since Carl Reynolds on July 2, 1930. Their 21 singles Thursday tied a franchise record for the White Sox Oh yeah Final Score White Sox 17 Detroit 7

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 09:44 AM) Imagine that it's early November of 2016. You are Rick Hahn, and you are planning on rebuilding. However, you are given the following, and only the following information to try and change your mind- in 2017: -The Narvaez/Smith platoon is actually not a total offensive black hole, and they hover around a .700 OPS -Jose Abreu puts up his best season since 2014 -Yolmer- (or Carlos, as of November 2016) Sanchez becomes a very solid utility infielder with some pop -Matt Davidson's HR/162 game pace is 37 -Melky's season is very similar to his 2016 season -Avisail Garcia comes out of nowhere to become an all-star, playing passable defense while slashing .325/.372./497/.869 -Leury Garcia becomes a competent hitter -Chris Sale remains Chris Sale -The Sox on paper feature one of the best bullpens in the game, barring potential rebuilding trades -Free agent signee Anthony Swarzak ends up being a stellar reliever With only the above information, would you have changed course? No, if we just go by who you mentioned that's 8 position player ,a good bullpen and 1 starting pitcher. Since you need 5 or at least 4 good starting pitchers . I would have to conclude that you are only giving me the good and leaving out the bad. Rebuild

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:58 AM) As I said, I refuse to treat the idea of moving Tim Anderson to catcher as anything other than a joke. You know how sarcasm is translated around here. Without the green letters people just don't see it. Ron883 mocked greg sarcastically but I think a few took his answer seriously and then it all started .

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 06:32 AM) MLB has fared EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY well in restricting earnings of players that are NOT in the Player's Union at the time of signing. I was talking about in ancient times like in the Flood and Messersmith examples when the money damn was busted wide open.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 02:36 PM) Weren't the Boston contracts minor league contracts? I don't quite remember. I think an MLB contract would be something entirely different, especially in the eyes of the Union. They would fight that with the huge amount of dollars involved. I think you need to read the exchanges in this thread between me and SS2k5 . We went at it pretty good and discussed that.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 09:23 AM) Our Y2Jimmy0 gives you the full picture on the upcoming Otani sweepstakes and what effect they likely have on your White Sox. Covered very thoroughly , Excellent work.

WOW ! Forgot this was an early game today. Moncada ,ABreu, Avi and Davidson a combined 13-17 ! Unreal !

QUOTE (ptatc @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 07:35 AM) There is absolutely no way this happens. The poster was mocking Greg who had once said something about moving Anderson to catcher.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 07:21 PM) What a great season from Avi. I'm at the point where I can see reasons to keep him and reasons to sell high. His 390 BABIP is going to regress, big time. On the other hand, even if you regress his slash line down 60 points, he's still a decent starting RF -- given that he's improved his defense to "tolerable". Thing that tips it for "sell high" is his health. He's never shown an ability to be a 150+ game a year player. For whatever reason. If they keep him I won't be mad but IMO they should at least let it be known he's up for bidding. Avi is 2nd in the league in infield hits. For a big man who is also not left handed that is truly unreal.His speed has fueled that BABIP and his improved D which all goes back to him losing weight and getting in better shape.

QUOTE (Tony @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 04:12 PM) Avi will be 27 for the 2018 season, is hitting .330 in mid September and has the highest batting average against LHP in MLB. I think he needs to be put into that group. I'm at the point where I'm going to be mildly upset if Abreu and/or Garcia are dealt for a lackluster package. .325 but feels like .330

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 05:41 PM) Then he is insane to come over. He can wait 2 years and get 9 figures. Well that is pretty much what everyone is saying. Otani says it's not about the money just playing against the best which is why every team is pretty equal in the chance to get him theoretically since he probably has his own ideas about who he would rather play for.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 05:19 PM) I have given you examples, you keep choosing to ignore them for the idea that performance somehow outweighs contract law. Ask Joe Smith how that worked out for him. It all boils down to one central theme. There are rules in place that govern contract negotiations for specific situations. MLB is already on record as saying they will protect the integrity of this process. MLB has already acted in a spot where the integrity of the process was violated by voiding contracts. The NBA has also acted in voiding the contract of a #1 draft pick superstar free agent who exactly in the scenario we are talking about today had a secondary contract negotiated in violation of the leagues collective bargaining agreement and saw his contract extension voided by the league. Trying to imagine contract law as different because of some concocted scenario is what isn't valid. You cannot negotiate a major league contract extension while negotiating a minor league deal under the new collective bargaining agreement. Period. End of story. MLB is already on record as saying they won't allow it to happen. You are fully ignoring history here for no good reason. Unless you have some facts to back up your argument, this is all imaginary and not real. I have a distinct feeling that you would have argued for MLB in the Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith situations. MLB hasn't fared well when called to task about restricting earnings. I just want you to tell me you think that if Otani has a successful 1st year and gets an extension that MLB opposes that they will 100% void the deal and 100 % win a court case should one arise. I am perfectly willing to admit it's possible MLB wins because I am not one of the top labor law experts in the country but think I have more than held my own in these discussions with you.

QUOTE (ron883 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 04:10 PM) This team looks good enough to compete for the WC or division next year. Indiana have some stats who are aging. Never know what happens in baseball. Sox will also have Kopech and eloy at some point. Rodon/Kopech/Lopez/giolito/ shields or guerrero or Stephens or Adams 1B abreu 2B moncada SS TA 3b Davidson/nicky/yolmer DH delmonico/davidson/abreu RF avi CF leury/engel LF nicky/eloy Supersubs yolmer/leury Bullpen - wing it. I think this team will be a pleasant surprise and the Sox very May well have a chance to compete. Who is this Indiana you speak of Mr. Inside Baseball ? I know you meant Indians but you mean that team with the AL record 21 game winning streak .? The Indians who have been without Kipnis, Brantley, and Andrew Miller for most of the streak ? That team who has outscored opponents by 101 runs in those 21 games ? Those Indians are the team the Sox can beat out for the division by winging it in the BP and young starting pitching still wearing diapers ?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:53 PM) Love this post, Scoots. Avi mania. Cooper is that good. Is he the only good coach in our organization? Not trying to flame or anger anybody, just asking cause Coop has a lot of success stories. Giolito was coming on strong in his last 4 or 5 starts in the minors. Heaping credit on Coop while asking is he our only good coach is naive. The Sox have a system wide pitching philosophy in place. SUre Cooper deserves credit but so do all the pitching coaches throughout the minor league system.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 05:07 PM) Is he allowed to do a 3 year opt out and skip the standard 6 year service time? I thought that wasn't allowed. That's what I said in one of my many posts 3yrs and an opt out. Not sure if the Cespedes comparison applies, since he was 25 at the time and under a different CBA. Unless you know more I can listen. I also used Cespedes as an example of how surprising things can happen but I didn't dare try to say their situations were the same .

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:47 PM) #1, source in bold. #2, IT HAS BEEN DONE, both by MLB and by the NBA. The MiLB vs MLB part doesn't matter. All contracts are subject to the commissioners office per the CBA. Did the Red Sox sue to over turn it? Did the Minnesota Timerwolves sue to overturn the Joe Smith ruling? That is two (actually six as Boston had five deals voided) examples of violations of CBAs where the governing body took exactly the action I am describing for exactly the reason you are describing here. Legally there is precedence, and the lack of a lawsuit only proves how strong the ability for MLB to void contracts is. #3, unless you can find a comparative contract to justify Otani by, you have no basis in reality. I have given you comps, cases, and examples of other contracts that you could get away with. You have given nothing except a quote from a source who you admit isn't a labor lawyer. It also misses the fact that pandoras box is already open. And yet you cannot point to 1 MLB contract ever voided after a successful 1st year of an international player in which a contract extension was offered.Other cases are not the same. As you said to me I will say to you unless you can find a similar player in similar circumstances you have no basis in reality. That is all we need to know. You are not a lawyer either. Nor am I. So we can argue about it until the cows come home. . It probably never happens but I think you and I won't be the only ones arguing this. We will see plenty of it soon enough. I think there's a chance MLB would void such a contract but it holding up is another thing. I will also add that 6 kids who sign for bonus money and have contributed nothing to a winning major league team is nothing like Otani having a good 1st season and contributing to the profitability of the parent club, I don't accept those comparisons as valid.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:03 PM) Giolito pitched very well without his best stuff. Anderson, Avi and Moncada with good days. Lots to be happy about. I hope its pretty clear by now that Sox wins usually are a result of the young guys doing well. Earlier it was easy to accept losses because there weren't as many young guys around. Now the team is full of them . Difficult to have your cake and eat it too. Sox losses with youngsters playing well are a bit harder to achieve now.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:38 PM) The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem. They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules. Everything lines up on the MLB side here. One point you tell me is the precedent has already been set and I ask you who and you tell me it doesn't matter. To me that means no precedent has been set if no one EVER in MLB under the current CBA has had their contract voided. It's not like I'm arguing something that is completely impossible. Your own article you posted said the same thing that I am arguing about. It won't be easy to void a contract extension IF Otani has a successful year one. If there is a legal battle involved it won't be a walk in the park for MLB to win especially if they can 't prove a handshake agreement was in place before he signed with that team in the first place.\ I will keep using that quote even if it was written by a layman and not a labor lawyer because it points out the whole crux of the matter. "The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be".

QUOTE (Scoots @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 02:28 PM) What a fricking outstanding season for Avi. The whole damn year. Pushing that average back to .330 now. Wasn't down to nearly .300 like a month or so ago? Just amazing. Avi seems like he gets 2 hits almost every game..325 now actually.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:38 PM) The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem. They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules. Everything lines up on the MLB side here. You see it your way . I see it mine. It's just a slippery slope MLB would rather avoid in my eyes. If a reasonable and justifiable contract extension for a successful 1st year Otani where the Sox could prove how his presence gave them huge financials gains and those gains were reflected in his contract. , MLB would be hard pressed to do something unprecedented legally like restrict his earning opportunities when that raise would be completely justified.

thank you ump Tyler and Bummer !

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:27 PM) The precedent has already been set. They can and have done it. If a team puts MLB into the position of doing it again, they will. Who's contract has ever been voided at the major league level ?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:21 PM) I guess the way I view it is is that teams have a finite supply of resources, and if your chance is 0.1% that you are going to acquire a certain asset, you should spend a proportional amount of those resources on that asset. Do your due diligence, make a call to his agent, spend a little bit of time working him, but if there is no positive feedback, give up on it and move on. And that is totally acceptable.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:59 PM) I think you are making this out to be my opinion. There are decades of contracts that serve at the basis for what can and can't be done for Otani. He is going to be signed as a young amateur free agent. When he is brought to the majors it will be the same as if he were any other player player recalled from the minors to the majors for the first time off of an MiLB contract. MLB has already flat out stated that a team can't have a secondary deal in place for a contract that is out of line with what has been done in the past. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/why-this...this-offseason/ If historicals dictate that players top out at $3-5 million in their first three years, and Otani gets a 3 year $60 million extension within his first year, when the best ever extension for a player within his first year is Tim Anderson at 6years/$32.5m, they will force MLB to act. They don't want to void contracts, but they did exactly that to Boston voiding their entire international signings class in 2015 when they voided 5 contracts AND they banned them from high dollar signings on top of it as a penalty for breaking these exact rules. [/indent] You actually made my argument stronger with that article with what is in that article " The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be". That is exactly what I have been saying. The legal implications involved in voiding a contract for a Major leaguer not some Boston 16-18yrs olds would be huge and want to be avoided at all costs.