CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 08:17 AM) I think if Sierra got himself some Flinstones vitamins, he probably could be a star. If he stays clean, he is probably a guy if he played every day for a while you would probably have seen enough reasonably soon. So you're saying he'd be Beckham like if he got as much PT as Beckham. I hope he gets the same chances. Actually just a chance. Beckhams had enough rope to hang himself at least 3 times. Viciedo is approaching that level also .

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 08:09 AM) To summarize more clearly: I see Sierra's ceiling as a high of a hybrid of De Aza/Viciedo, based on the outline I made earlier. I also don't see Sierra ever really getting there based on his other shortfalls. Ok so you're agreeing that the ceiling of one Sierra > the combination of De Aza and Tank using all their skills combined unless I'm misunderstanding because I'm not sure your clarification was all that clear.Not sure if you meant a "higher hybrid" since we're talking ceilings or "kind of a hybrid" . Either way, if that's the case ,then I made my point for him being deserving of more playing time than either De Aza or Tank.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 07:53 AM) It is my experience that low IQ players have less of a chance of succeeding, because even if they don't fully realize their tool set, their chances of contributing meaningfully to a team drop, because of the level of mistakes they make. I see a lot of Alejandro De Aza in Moises Sierra. I think there is talent there, but a decent level of it will never be realized. I have no problem with him as a 4th OF, I don't want to see him as a starter. What you call a low IQ player is way too judgmental in young players. The more baseball you play the better you should get in understanding your abilities and the importance of making the right decisions based on situations. You see low IQ , I see youth and inexperience and extremely toolsy .On one hand you advocate a combination of De Aza and Tank and I know I've seen you bash De Aza's IQ in the past. If Sierra is making the same mistakes De Aza made at 29 yrs old I'll agree he is a low baseball IQ guy.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 07:18 AM) Just throw out the Puig idea. He doesn't have anywhere close to that ceiling. Actually De Aza/Viciedo hybrid makes more sense. The power and speed of De Aza (15-20 homer top, 30 steal top), with the arm of Viciedo (but better, really a plus/plus arm). The baseball IQ of both of them, including defensive instincts. I don't see where you think I'm comparing Puig to Sierra regarding ceilings. You mentioned Sierra's outfield and base running IQ so I said Puig and Eaton make the same kind of mistakes . Puig especially in spades. That was the comparison not in their ceilings. Young players make mistake simple as that when they believe in their abilities and are aggressive in their throwing and base running. Talking about the speed and power of De Aza is pointless . The guy is 30 , he has no upside any longer .Sierra's arm is just as good as Viciedo's and his speed and defensive upside is way beyond Tanks. Again all I'm saying is he needs more AB's , to play more baseball to develop his talents. I just want him to get a chance. Are the chances of him becoming a Carlos Gomez type player high. No. But it is a small possibility. Hell, the chances of Gomez becoming what he is now weren't that high either especially getting limited playing time like he was. The chance of De Aza or Tank becoming that good are non-existent.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:55 AM) What I saw early from Sierra scared me. He seems like a low IQ baserunner and a guy who depends on his plus arm more than making the right play. I've seen him fly his cut-off man more than once trying to make a play, instead of making the smart throw and keeping a trail runner from taking an extra base, and eliminating a DP chance. He also doesn't seem like a very smart baserunner. Maybe those are things that can be fixed, but mixing that, with the fact that Toronto was already ready to let the obviously talented kid walk away, makes me wonder if Sierra is someone that Ventura and his team have been really successful at finding good match ups for, and if some of his numbers are looking better because of that. Puig makes a lot of mistakes too. Eaton's made a few boneheaded base running errors too.That just comes with the territory often with young players. They believe in their abilities to make things happen. It just has to be harnessed. Getting playing time is a chance to grow in all facets of the game. I know the Sox need to see what they have in Viciedo too and Tank will never be a fast runner or plus defender because of that difference in speed. So Sierra is just as deserving if not more so than Tank because of his tools alone.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:42 AM) And De Aza will be gone next year, and he'll get his shot. EDIT: Hopefully Viciedo is gone too. I hope he gets a shot sooner than that. For development purposes he needs all the AB's he can get. To further my comparison to Carlos Gomez , Gomez had 600+ AB's with the Twins in 2008 then for the next 3 years ,09, 10, 11 he got under 400 with the Twin and Brewers ,regardless of whether it was injuries or playing time he still didn't get the AB's. In 2013 he got over 400 AB's but had a breakout power year with 19 HR's, played the same great defense but had around the same batting average and OBP as he did with the Twins in 08. 2013 way more AB's , close to 600 ,same power, better batting average ,better OBP , same great glove. Once he started getting those AB's he developed his tools. Just would be a shame to see a guy with Sierra's tools never get a chance to be a full time player.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:00 AM) I don't think we should plan on it. Regardless, he could be a good 4th OF piece for us for the next couple years, and that's not insignificant. Plan on what exactly ? I'm only saying he has the tools to be great like a lot of guys do but so few actually ever realize. I know he has more upside at this point than either De Aza or Tank but isn't getting the same chance . Get the guy some AB's . He's more important to the future of the Sox at this point than is De Aza . I know Robin want's to win games and put what he thinks is the best lineup out there nearly every day but the guy can run, throw, defend, hit and potentially hit for power. That's more potential and tools than either De Aza or Tank has and his AB's should reflect that because I fear when Avi comes back he will be riding the pine even more than he does now.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 05:33 AM) From the standpoint of roster construction: when you acquire players, you are acquiring probabilities. That is, each player comes with a range of potential outcomes for each appearance and, by extension, each season. A GM has to make an assessment about what the most likely outcome is for each player he has, weigh the chances of a substantially better or worse outcome, and decide whether or not he is comfortable with said probability holding down the role he has in mind. What we're witnessing is close to the worst possible outcome of this bullpen. Just one pitcher is pitching near what was probably projected as an expected performance. The top two pieces were injured for nearly the entire season, two more pieces pitching close to as poorly as they could realistically be expected to pitch, and the rest pitching below expectations to the point that should have been realistically expected. To me, it doesn't look like there were any surefire signs that these guys were to going to pitch worse than normally (injury, decline), so I chalk this up to bad luck from Hahn's point of view. I don't think there's anything wrong with the process, I think it was just a rough year. I'd expect him to approach building next year's bullpen in a similar fashion, and I'd be pretty happy with him doing so. I certainly wouldn't want him to panic and start paying steeply for Proven Closers™ who have shown to be, at best, BARELY more reliable than a random live arm in terms of sustained effectiveness over several years. Exactly. The goal was and will continue to be adding to the core for sustained years of contention. Bullpen pieces usually can't be counted on to be a core piece unless you have a lock down closer like Mariano Rivera, Kimbrel and Street. As important as a good bullpen is its usually a year to year crap shoot. This year the Sox rolled snake-eyes. Adding core pieces Hahn did pretty good. Bargain basement shopping and trade candidates developing for flipping , not so good. Probably needed 2 of those 3 to compete this year or make a big advance in the master plan. So overall a lot of improvement from last year but not enough to get optimistic about next year unless the Sox add free agents who are always too old to be considered core pieces or starts using his better minor leaguers in trades. Remember Abreu is the oldest core piece so the window revolves around him and the health of all the core pieces.

I think we can all agree that what really excites fans about a young player is a blend of speed and power. Those guys like Trout and Puig and to a lesser extent Andrew McCutcheon and Carlos Gomez. They are a rare breed smashing HR's, flying all over the outfield and the bases ,making great catches and nailing runners with awesome throws. I see some of those thing in Moises Sierra although he is in his mid 20's rather than his early 20's. He's fast, makes some outstanding catches and has a great arm .He's had some decent years in the minors nothing that would leap out at you to suggest he's a budding superstar. Has potential to hit for power being 6"1" 220 . What I did notice is that he hasn't had a chance to get 400 AB's in one level since he was 22 in AA which looks like his best season in the minors. He reminds me a lot of Carlos Gomez actually not in his minor league numbers but in development. Gomez always had the great glove but didn't break out as a hitter until he was 27 . Since the Sox picked him up he is hitting .304 with a .788 OPS in 102 AB's. All I'm saying is with his tools and size he needs to be looked at closer and deserves more playing time to see what he is. He is an exciting guy to watch certainly and without the chip on his shoulder of a Gomez or the preening of Puig. He's also appears to be a fun guy in the clubhouse. Thoughts ?

QUOTE (JamesDean @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 03:03 AM) Absolutely! There should be no doubt that Rick Hahn has somewhat decimated this pitching staff, and those who deny this can only offer lame excuses as their reasons. We're all familiar with the names and pedigrees of those who served the Sox a little more than one year ago. Peavy (Cy Young, 3x AS), Santiago, All-Star relievers Thornton and Crain, and a competent and effective closer in Reed. I understand the 'salary dump', and I don't disagree with it (though I do have questions and doubts about the return they received). What I do disagree with is the poor attempt to replace what was given away. We're familiar with those names as well, Belsario, Putnam, and Downs were all signed as free agents. The Scott Downs travesty, while it pales in comparison to the 3rd base fiasco, is quite telling. On Jan. 2, 2014, Downs was signed to a 2yr/$8M contract to fill the role vacated by the Thornton trade, even while he was one-year older, and statistically less effective. Meanwhile, Thornton signed his new contract for less money, 2yr/$7M with the Yankees about one week later. Is it still considered a 'salary dump' if the player that you've dumped signs for less money than what he'd made the prior season? Of course, Downs then gets dumped, but we should give credit to St. Rick for including a buyout clause that relieves them of paying the full contract. If you view Downs as taking Thornton's spot, both on the roster and in payroll, and Belasario takes Crain's spot, then what happened with the rest of the money saved from the salary dump of 2013? Peavy and Rios combined were slated to make $27M, yet none of this money was spent to bolster the pitching staff. With two starters traded (plus one other rotation spot questionable) and the loss of two set-up men and your closer, the effort to replace these players never happened, despite having the money to do so. Rick Hahn chose to put this money into Jerry's pocket, and now the 2014 White Sox are paying for that decision. Ironically, as other posters have mentioned, a strong bullpen would have the Sox in contention in the Central Division/Wild Card which would likely lead to larger attendances and possibly playoff revenue. Welcome to Soxtalk and quality post. I won't argue your points, they make sense. And perhaps the bigger argument is if the Sox had the money to offer Tanaka a large contract then why didn't they spend more to make the team as a whole better ? Since the Sox signed Abreu they had to believe he was going to be good. I really do think and I said it in April and I remember fathom agreeing with me that Sox management didn't think they could compete this year after they didn't sign Tanaka. But if they had spread the Tanaka money around it's possible they could have. But you all also have to keep in mind Hahn has a long term goal of being in contention every year not just one year then fail fail fail. He knows the Sox have never made the playoffs 2 straight years and his goal is to remedy that. All the arguments about the crappy pen is really just one year of an expected rebuild. Does it suck we could possibly have contended this year and the pen sucks ? Of course . Could they have spent more money ? Definitely. But Hahn wants the right pieces for a young core. When he feels he has enough core pieces then he will make more of an effort to build around them. This wasn't the year for that as much as I hate seeing Abreu and Sale's performances wasted. Seems as if we added to the core with Abreu, Eaton and the surprise of Gillaspie .Losing Avi and Erik Johnson not stepping up hurt a bunch for evaluation purposes but I'd say if the goal was to build a younger stronger core to compete for years ahead , that this year has been a success. Some failures of young players was to be expected but realistically the bullpen failure is not a huge deal in the master plan. Toss into the mix Rodon as a big POTENTIAL core piece. The bigger failure is potential trade pieces all failing and I suppose you can add some bullpen members to that because now adding more good young core pieces is much more difficult. Now Hahn has to spend money because another year wasted trying to add guys with the idea of flipping them is another year where the young core ages.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 02:07 PM) The sad thing is there is absolutely no help coming from the minors, with regards to the bullpen, unless it's Rodon. Lack of pitching depth throughout the system has killed the Sox this year. You'll know when things are hopeless if they bring up Nestor Molina.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 02:05 PM) Every team not just the Twins Just talking about the last 3 games when they have been very bad.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 02:03 PM) I smell a Jim Johnson signing and a Guerra DFA soon.... Missing Putnam.

Twins hitters must salivate when Sox relief pitchers come in. Another Q ND.

QUOTE (flavum @ Aug 3, 2014 -> 01:35 PM) Q deserves a "5 and Fly" win. Bullpen has chance to redeem itself if Quetzalcoatl can keep the lead.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:51 PM) Avi 3-5, with one of his outs being a line out to 3rd. How soon do you think he'll be back in the Sox lineup ?

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:55 PM) Maybe Abreu can be a hero in the 9th . That's not asking too much is it ? Asking them to pitch to him might be asking too much. Damn missed the Santana HR typing this.

Maybe Abreu can be a hero in the 9th . That's not asking too much is it ? Asking them to pitch to him might be asking too much.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:48 PM) No way should he have tried going to 2nd after not running out of the box. That's the third bad base running play by Eaton in the last 2 innings. Yea he was in one of those zones where he was feeling in the groove or invincible and wanted so badly to get the go ahead run in scoring position.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:19 PM) Oh blah. We hit about 5 ropes after that. It's impossible to know what would have happened. It could be 9-4. What I know didn't happen was a DP . Hey I've crticized Robin since last year .I'm just callin' 'em like I see 'em.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:18 PM) Hawk in the booth after a Beckham hit HAHA you're pretty good with that stuff for an old dude.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:11 PM) Wow, Viciedo and Beckham with contributions this inning. Eaton got away with bad base running there, as he shouldn't have been tagging. Great minds think alike. I didnt see yours before I posted mine.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:13 PM) We're crushing the ball though this inning...the sac bunt is the only easy out they've gotten. Yeah but if he hits into a DP inning might be over eventually with less runs or different pitching changes. The sac bunt was really key.

What a great inning when Viciedo , De Aza and Beckham can all make contributions. And Alexi !

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 06:07 PM) Eaton :good things come in small packages. Ok everybody give Robin some credit for the sac bunt paying off.