Princess Dye

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 02:07 PM) Actually, I was quite high on the White Sox going into 2005 because of their pitching staff and the addition of a true leadoff hitter and a catcher who could actually hit. Do you remember before 05 when we had 5th starter woes? What do you think of 3rd, 4th, AND 5th starter woes? 3.12, 3.87, 3.61, 3.50, 5.12 These are the ERAs from the guys on that 2005 staff. We are not as far from this as everyone purports. Certainly not close, but lets not romanticize that year's pitching. A divorce-less Jose up year, and one guy surprises us.... just sayin lets play the games. Just like that year, we need to belt a lot of runs. This part of the equation does not change with us.

also, it's funny to me how people keep lumping Crede and Uribe together. Crede's last healthy year was an outstanding 2006. Offensively and defensively.

QUOTE(max power @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 01:59 PM) Much unlike jesus christ, ironically. hey man, we are both defiantly busting out our lowercase here.

QUOTE(TitoMB345 @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 02:27 PM) I just don't see anything that says Richar will get his spot if he gets healthy or Uribe continues his regular-seson suckfest. So if Richar were a-ok this spring, in all ways, you dont think he wouldve been front-runner? I'm as excited about Alexei as anyone, but if he hasnt played a lot of 2b in Cuba, there's no way he can be rushed into a MLB starting job. I mean, there are real and obvious reasons why Uribe is starter...by default. It's not some conspiracy to get him on the field.

QUOTE(TitoMB345 @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 02:12 PM) Because it's Ozzie and Kenny we're talking about. I suppose I walked right into that one. But really I dont at all see Uribe being a personal favorite of either. Richar will get every opportunity when healthy. Unless Uribe's unbelievable coming out, and even then Richar will get a chance eventually unless we're winning.

QUOTE(TitoMB345 @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 01:09 PM) I wish it was true, but we all know Uribe is our starting second basemen for the long hall. Only chance he's gone is if we're out of it by July and he's batting a very un-Uribe like average or sports an increased OBP. Richar is younger, under contract for awhile, and has already had a higher OBP than either of Uribe's last two years. Why are we to believe he wont take the starting 2b job when he's back?

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 01:55 PM) I can't decide which is more embarrassing for this site... the thread accusing Obama of doing coke and having homosexual relations, or this one. Jesus christ that exists?

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 01:48 PM) I don't blame him for Richar breaking a rib. I blame him for not taking a golden opportunity to move Juan Uribe. He could have just as easily signed Marcus Giles whose production would be downright identical at 1/5 of Uribe's salary. Uribe knows he's unwanted, and now he's still here. They are throwing away money, but like I said that's not my problem. I actually watch these games though, and watching Uribe for ONE MORE AT BAT will be one too many. Giles' career stats downward sloping at present. Is pretty much 30 now and he hit .224 last yr. If he's identical to Uribe, they're throwing away 1/5 of Uribe's salary cost, too... which should also anger you. Because it's more JR money that you dont want seen thrown away. I think your last sentence marks the problem: we're letting our emotions get motivated by which players we're sick of seeing. When in truth, we have in Uribe a guy who can play SS if Cabrera goes down with anything. That's not worthless. I dont want Ozuna at SS and Alexei's fielding still has to be investigated more before it's truly known where/what he can do. You'd have a valid point on all this if not for the existence of (and plans in place for) Richar. Cano II !

QUOTE(max power @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 01:45 PM) No, I was happy they put him on waivers and supposedly someone picked him up. Then richar broke his rib and I was happy when they took him off waivers. Richar will heal, and uribe will be gone. Kenny made the right moves. I don't see how you can blame him for richar breaking a rib. The whole Uribe thing - i cant see why that gets people upset. No question Jerry would like to have the $4.5M back, but why do we care so much? They were willing to spend more than that on the difference between Hunter and Swisher, so really it's not like they wouldve spent that elsewhere. They can but didnt want to overpay for any of the remaining bigger FAs that hadn't said no yet. And, yes, the job is Richar's unless Uribe (or Alexei) is outstanding early. It's Richar's turn, and neither Ozzie nor the org have ever stood in the way of that.

yea, everyone is so dismissive of the holes in Fields' game. He hit .244 last year and the difference between his hitting and Crede's isnt going to be vast enough to save or kill the season. the difference in their fielding might be.

QUOTE(Princess Dye @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 01:26 PM) like chicken and the egg though. What was Jon Garland if not for his run support? And now we miss him. One of those guys can be a Jon with the support he got in good yrs. and no not this kind

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 01:14 PM) But this season is going to come down to our starting pitching, and the rest is mostly just nitpicking. like chicken and the egg though. What was Jon Garland if not for his run support? And now we miss him. One of those guys can be a Jon with the support he got in good yrs.

This is really excellent

To me, all signs point to yes. 1) Richar's MLB on base pct has been higher than Uribe's was in both 2006 and 07. As soon as Richar's healthy, that spot is his. Only way that's not true is if Alexei is Soriano right out of the gate or something. 2) He's absolutely the kind of guy who could have another strong month at the plate, be dealt, and the fans wouldnt miss him at all. Would blame the org at all. Reason being, of course, that we've seen this before from him.

QUOTE(Big Hurtin @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 12:05 PM) That's something that keeps getting said, but I don't believe it. Hopefully they'll hit, making the point moot. There's no reason to believe Uribe wont have a short leash. Especially considering Richar and what he has done already in his career. Uribe's OBP the last two years has been lower than Richar's last year. Also (and this doesnt target your specific post at all).... people who decry the farm system being decimated should appreciate the possibilities of Uribe and Crede being showcased and being exchanged for prospects. Dumping them from the onset does nothing unless you really think the guys behind them are way way way better in the present.

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 11:56 AM) and i can understand that. i just don't see fields being "ruined" by playing a month or two in triple-A. if he is the player many think he can be, he'll be back and he'll be fine. if playing for another month or two in the minors ruins him, he probably wasn't going to be that good anyway. I too am of the camp that doesnt see Fields' progress being automatically hurt by having to go down there. Right now, we have a strong defensive 3b, which the staff needs. Offense from either 3b is still a wild card. Additionally, the only way he's not up here in a few months is if we're a really good team.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 11:52 AM) Ramirez has impressed, and should get regular at bats, not be a backup. If Uribe was an Ozzie favorite, that'd be something to worry about. But there's no doubt that if Ramirez picks up where he left off in ST, he'll get all the at bats he wants. Richar also will get every opportunity he wants, if the position is still up in the air when he returns.

I think people are just really upset about Fields. Honestly, the possibility that Crede is headed out in a trade in one month still looms. It's not that much to lose sleep over.

To all the pessimists This is no different from most other years. If you dont have top of the line players, you need a lot to lock into place. It's not the NBA, where everything can lock into place and your team still isnt going anywhere. We COULD have a 2005. It's at least possible. For us and a lot of teams in our boat. OBP is improved, but we need the back of the rotation starters to make a leap, and some position player will have to shock us. As far as the farm system, it's hard to say we gave it all away when we were slamming how little there was to begin with. Either way, it's going to need to be built over time. Fortunately we have guys like Swisher, Fields who are (in different ways) cheap for several more years and (in different ways) young.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 11:31 AM) Most likely. He'll do a better job of getting on base and driving himself in than Owens will while Anderson is busy providing significantly better defense in CF. If we had a great pitching staff, things might be a little different, but I have a feeling at least two of the 3-4-5 will need all they help they can get defensively. Swisher against LHP is a pretty darn good OBP guy... but against RHP it's less...and that's also where he hits the HRs. Gotta have him lower in the lineup in that circumstance. I personally want Owens in there against RHP, but I'd probably even take Ozuna over Swisher (as leadoff) b/c of those facts

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 11:15 AM) Anderson had near-record level defense in CF in his rookie year and put together a solid month or two at the plate. There's no question in my mind that Anderson making a big jump offensively to go along with his GG-caliber defense gives you the best outcome. BTW, just going off of ST stats, Anderson looks more ready to make that jump. is Swisher your leadoff hitter vs. RHP?

QUOTE(Kenny Hates Prospects @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 10:43 AM) Boston has pitching. Crisp sucks but has a better arm than Owens. Boston also plays in theme park for a stadium. They ahve many advantages, but mainly it's their awesome pitching staff that enables them to get away with garbage like Crisp and Julio Lugo. Owens has no shot at stopping a runner from advancing 2nd to 3rd or from 3rd to home unless he's basically standing face-to-face with the cut-off man. He might as well run the damn ball to the cut off man. Swisher is better than Owens. Quentin is better than Owens. If you want OBP then you could make the argument that since Swisher is a better CF and a better hitter than Owens, he should be in CF with Quentin in LF. As far as having a fast guy at the top of the lineup, we don't have that type of team. Look at our projected lineup 1-9 with their career OBP: Owens CF .324 Cabrera SS .321 Thome DH .409 Konerko 1B .353 Dye RF .337 Swisher LF .361 Pierzynski C .328 Crede 3B .305 Uribe 2B .295 It's still the same thing. It's a slow lineup full of a bunch of hackers and pseudo grinders aka bad players. One fast guy who doesn't know how to take a walk and can't play CF isn't going to help anything. That is still an all-or-nothing lineup, and when you add some s***ty starting pitching, it spells disaster. I'd rather see the most talent in the starting lineup possible, forget the grinders, and if guys like Anderson, Quentin, Ramirez, Richar, etc. can't get it done then that means you go find another talented player and put him in there instead. The Sox are trying to make Owens, who isn't a true lead-off man and never will be, into the true lead-off man they never acquired during the offseason. Owens' ST isnt doing anything for you? He's a guy who has been getting better offensively the more he plays at this level. If he's already a speed demon, why not give that a look? Especially when the other options are Quentin and Anderson... 25 yr olds that havent done much at the MLB level ever. I mean, with them, you're content to project favorably.... but for some reason not with Owens who has actually put together some consistently good consecutive weeks at the MLB level. Let me ask it this way: what gets us closer to championship level.... Owens playing his absolute best and making a big jump in offensive ability this year, or Anderson doing the same? Not who would be the better player, but which as best fit for the team gives the team the highest ceiling. I personally feel that the absolute best from Anderson this year still puts us in the familiar position of having the 345 bashers coming up with no one on second.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 10:23 AM) Personally, I would much rather have Swisher lead off than bat 6th. Why not have the high OBP guy bat before the guys who drive in the runs than after them? I don't care if he doesn't steal, he can hit himself to second or homer much more often than Owens will. Maybe if Owens was a premiere guy it could be an issue, but September and spring training aside, he's been below mediocre. The long man in the White Sox bullpen is going to be more important than usual if this team is any good this season due to the fact that the rotation isn't filled with innings eaters and the bullpen is stocked with 1 inning guys. 2 or 3 short outings by the starters in a 6 or 7 game stretch can really tax the bullpen if there is no one who can go 3 or 4 inning in it. I don't want Masset on the team, but if Wasserman can't give you those innings, the Sox are pretty much stuck with him. But Swisher against righties? OBP not that much more impressive than Owens' career OBP... so when you factor in the steals, i want to see if Jerry can make a leap this year offensively. The way I see it, if it doesnt work out in a few months, we'll likely know we're out of it...and you're going to see Fields up and see the other OFs get playing time. If Owens does make a leap this year, the team can be very good. It depends I guess whether you value being the most complete team possible right now, or more focusing on developing guys foremost. EDIT: also against righties you want Swisher's power to be unleashed, since that's who he hits HRs off. I can see having him leadoff against lefties and sitting Owens, however. That's when he has OBP up and power down.

QUOTE(Kenny Hates Prospects @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 10:08 AM) No matter how you slice it, Owens is not a CF. Anderson is, so Anderson is better. Even if Anderson never gets another hit in the majors in his life, he's still better than Owens who is a LF. Quentin and Swisher are corner OF's. They are better than Owens. Owens doesn't belong in CF over Anderson since he can't play CF, and he doesn't belong in left over Quentin or Swisher because he sucks it hard in comparison. Owens = 4th OF. It's not that I hate Owens or anything, it's that he has no arm, no power, no plate discipline, he has nothing in his game whatsoever that says he is a starting caliber player. He just has speed, which just like any other tool in the game, if it isn't complimented by other abilities it is worthless unless coming off the bench. At least his competition has enough talent to where if those guys turn out they can be above average regulars. Owens at best is another Podsednik, and even that is a huge if considering Pods at least has some kind of plate discipline and showed a little bit of power with Milwaukee. When you say Owens can't play CF, you're talking mainly about his arm? Coco Crisp has a weak arm and his team wasnt totally killed by that. Again when you talk about leadoff hitters, imagine Owens...even with a .340 OBP. Yet, he's standing on second a lot of the time for our big bashers. Owens' fielding problems cant be considered so serious that we totally take away that potential leadoff guy. I mean, do we really want another year of having the sluggers up there with no one to drive in? Fault the Sox for trying to win this year, but part of that is making sure every piece locks in place, like in '05. We need a leadoff hitter to lock in place, and we need the 3-4-5 to not be awful. It may be faulty logic to try to win now, but taking a shot at Owens making a big leap is part of that logic.

QUOTE(Kenny Hates Prospects @ Mar 26, 2008 -> 09:46 AM) -Fields is cheaper and better than Crede both now and in the future, yet Crede is starting. -Phillips is cheaper and better than Hall both now and probably in the short-term future at least, yet Hall is the back-up. -Ramirez is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, yet Uribe is starting. -Quentin is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart. -Anderson is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart. -Richar is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, but because of his injury he cannot make the team. That's fine. But... -Bourgeois is also cheaper than Uribe, he also gives better AB's than Uribe, and while his defense is a drop-off from Juan, his speed and versatility off the bench make him more of a long-term benefit than Uribe. Do we really know any of this? Too long a list for the kind of sample sizes we're looking at to base all this on. Especially Quentin and Anderson... are you looking at their major league numbers in real games at all? Owens' numbers in said games matter at all?