Princess Dye

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Jan 3, 2007 -> 08:51 PM) I think that those who spin every move KW makes into something positive for the Sox for the present, future and all times will take whatever happens in 2007 and torture their "logic" into arguing that everything KW did was just right. understood that some people do this "spin"... but it is very possible to like this deal and not be a Kenny apologist. some people just dont think McCarthy was all that great, some people are not convinced he was going to be anything more than a 4.00 ERA starter. no one here has closely followed the careers of Danks and Masset from game to game, but we can still like this trade and appreciate having some life breathed back into the farm system.

i may be on the other side of the argument -- but you cant blame anyone for discounting inside information given on a message board. for all anyone knows, everyone is making stuff up 24-7 on these boards. that mystery aspect also leads to good things... a sort of democracy in a way...which makes boarding worthwhile. i mean if i wanted to knowingly talk to Mr. Levine all the time, i'd wait for him outside his house and try to start talking to him. which i do . . .

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 24, 2006 -> 09:50 AM) And let's remember - in 2005, our 5th starter slot was a near-6 ERA hole most of the year with El Duque. So the fears expressed about white flagging it are pretty ridiculous. This organization has gotten a lot stronger in the young pitching department in the last month, and we still look good for 2007. this is a good point. how many teams out there are unsure about the #5 spot in the rotation? this is not an uncommon state for a team to be in. the problem in 2004 was we didnt have worthwhile candidates. right now we have a lot to choose from. which is the bigger problem: having no 2007 #5, or having a weak farm system? solve the latter, and you can increase your leverage for trading at the deadline for the former (or better than #5 starter) or one of the young ones steps up quickly, like Brandon did, but maybe better.

umm... hm.

anyone who says 'dont count on Floyd for anything' should also realize to him/herself that you cant count on Brandon for anything more than a #4 starter. count on. the only thing Kenny is counting on to come out of this: that someone in the organization can be a decent #5 starter. everyone's right to say that spot is unfilled right now; but if you can add very good prospects - and make that your only hole.... isnt it worth it? part of Kenny's job is to compete for future seasons as well as 2007. the question is -- are we totally morgaging 2007 with what we've done this offseason. the answer is no: we lost Garcia (arm falling off) and McCarthy (nearing 25 years of age, at peak trade value). to me those actually arent that shocking...that you would move them and still keep your chances of being 90+ wins. you cant say we tore up this team, as much as it feels like it right now.

i think a big part of the backlash on this is the emotional response to trading a young pitcher who has shown something. it's not necessarily about losing what McCarthy gave us the last two years. people here cant point to past McCarthy accomplishments and say what we lost. just 7 games in 2005. KW does not follow the rules about "you dont trade a 23 yr old pitcher". he has no problem losing Brandon and working to get someone in the 5th role that will put up decent numbers, just as Brandon would have. meanwhile, he takes a risk on potential worldbeaters - and if they dont work out, the 2007 5th starter role will probably be "decent" somehow anyway. this is the thought process of making a trade like this.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 02:22 PM) Brandon will be the better starter through out his career. are people confident in Brandon for reasons beyond that stretch of games in 2005? i dont know what else people get so excited about. a lot of people seem to totally ignore 06, in that he was out of his element. but when Brandon would talk about how he missed being able to set people up early in the game...how that was a big part of what he does... doesnt it just reinforce the suspicion we've all had that his stuff isnt that high end? if the guys we got have that kind of stuff, i'm definitely willing to part with a 3.90 ERA 2007 starter.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 02:22 PM) KW needs to keep his mouth shut, because he's been nothing but hypocritical this offseason. We've now made two moves that significantly hurts the 2007 team, which is something he said we'd never do. losing Garcia and McCarthy.... isnt the team pretty much the same if we have a decent fifth starter and someone in RH relief that takes to it better than Brandon (not hard)

QUOTE(TheOcho @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 02:10 PM) So do you like Floyd as our 5th starter? Then eventually us bringing up Gio Gonzalez or Danks to try and fill that hole when Floyd f***s up? And you don't know if Danks is going to be a ton better in 2 years. everyone seems to agree here that McCarthy is, to some level, a prospect. we havent seen his best, we hope. he could go up or down, either way. so if KW scouted guys and decided they are better prospects, they have more raw ability than Brandon... dont we have to go for that. if you ask me, McCarthy was at his peak as a trading chip. if he starts next year and puts up a 3.90 ERA, then you have no more trading chip and you have a just-ok starter. but he's cheap!!!11! and he'd be around forever ! if on the other hand, we've brought in some real firepower with this trade... then you are willing to give up that other lower-ceiling unknown.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 02:06 PM) Sure thing to do what? He's a much bigger "sure thing" than Floyd or Danks. Thats for damn sure. i'd agree McCarthy is more of a sure thing than those kids as a 2007 5th starter. i'm willing to give that up though for more later.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 02:06 PM) How do you trade Young pitching for young pitching???? What? Sorry, just confused right now if the one youre getting can be a ton better in 2 years. the one you give up is still an unknown for 2007. not on these boards, obviously, but he is an unknown.

QUOTE(Princess Dye @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 01:59 PM) McCarthy starts for a whole year: honestly, give me his end of year stats. still waiting for someone to take me up on this. i think the reason people dont want to is b/c of that realization that Brandon still was a prospect himself, in a sense. waiting for his coming-of-age. yet now he was the 2007 sure thing?

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 01:57 PM) Not if you want to win in 2007. McCarthy starts for a whole year: honestly, give me his end of year stats. HONEST NOW

everyone loves BMac for 7 games he pitched for us in 2005. 1.69 ERA. everything else from him has been here or there. now if you take the emotion of that 2005 year out of it, which KW has to do as a job.... you will give that player up for top flight prospects.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 01:49 PM) If you don't think BMac has shown anything then wtf has Danks shown you? my point was if you are getting a lot of "win later", you do it. read my actual post before you respond. have i scouted anyone myself? no. i'm arguing the logic here on behalf of KW, and it's that they 1) determined there's a lot of future stud ability coming our way in this deal 2) Brandon was not that. if these young arms end up being nothing, then I bring out the firebrand assault. but until then, the logic of the trade makes sense. you arent giving that much with McCarthy, as beloved as he was. just arent.

QUOTE(SnB @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 01:44 PM) mccarthy has shown that he will be good in the majors even if people here agree with this poster's overall point, you have to admit this part is just not true. what has he shown? put better, how might a non-Sox fan characterize his play the last two years?

Who was McCarthy overpowering last year? no one. if someone wants to give up a ton of "win later" for just SOME "win now"... you do it.

argh, i hate Barry but my mouth cant stop watering

even while pursuing this year, teams have to make "win later" moves. even the biggest spenders have to do it. they're not terribly popular... but before 2005, we made some moves that could have been interpreted as "win later".... yet Ozzie created the "win now" atmosphere in the clubhouse in the end, that's what matters most. plus, there's a "win now" aspect to moving McCarthy into the rotation... if you ask me. if Garcia was really going to bring us a ton in return, i'd be disappointed. but i dont think he was.

seattle maybe? thats where we've already sent one of our old , ahem, fossils ... to DH

he was one of these crazy people that worked in sports and enjoyed their job and showed you that. insane.

just saw him

there should be a rule that guys as nice as joe crede cant be represented by demonic overlords like scott boras

not that i have anything specific in mind, but does anyone else wish there was at least a way of trading one of Konerko/Dye/Thome .... in exchange for solid hitters than can actually score from second on a single? too often we had the big three on the basepaths, all at the same time. not saying this is all that possible (especially not Paulie) but i'm wondering what others think. moving Crede is another possibility in this line of thinking.

for some reason, i thought i had already experienced the let down of not winning after having already won. but i'm only old enough to remember post-85 bears... and of course Jordan's retirements left little doubt that another title would not happen. so this is the first time there's been a shock that my team is not repeating.