Milkman delivers

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 16, 2011 -> 02:02 PM) Last year it took him about a month to get going for both his arrival at AA and his arrival at AAA. FWIW, he's also only had 6 AB's over the last week. And hopefully he's heating up!

In order to win 85 games this year, a hopeful estimate for how many wins it will take to finish at the top of this division, the Sox will have to play at a .567 clip for the rest of the year. Say they go on just one more 5-game losing streak, that jumps up to about a necessary .600 clip for the remainder of the year. The basic point here is that we need to start playing very well and very soon. Dallas McPherson and Juan Pierre are much less likely to help in that endeavor than Dayan Viciedo and, well...anyone.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:49 PM) No. I am optimistic and truly believe this team can still do it. If it doesn't well then there is always next year - now that is hope. No, I think you're being hopeful. Your only basis for your belief that they will turn it around is that there's time.

QUOTE (T R U @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:26 PM) I don't need to take them seriously because they arent going to be there at the end of the year.. that team isn't good enough they are off to a hot start, that's all.. But if they are there at the end of the year, I still don't think you'll admit that they should be taken seriously.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:44 PM) Does meaningful discussion mean that I have to see it your way? I sure understand your point and after some losses feel a lot like you do, but my head tells me that it's a long haul to the end and this team can start putting it back together. We play alot of baseball within our own division No, it means that you're showing nothing but blind hope. Not optimism, but hope.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:40 PM) Let me put it this way...I generally think Milkman is way too over the edge and generally disagree with him, and when a person says "There's still lots of time left"...it puts me on Milkman's side. Haha QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:42 PM) I'm there too. We are behind the 8-ball and the only bit of optimism we had was a 6-3 road trip where our offense still sucked. Gooooood. Gooooood.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:34 PM) We just might be digging ourselves out of the hole in a month or two or three. There is stil plenty of baseball left and we have talent. They just need to put things together. The point is there is time. You are in it for the long haul not looking to change your whole team every week because they lose some games. f*** man, whatever. There is obviously not going to be any meaningful discussion here. You keep right on waiting patiently and making no necessary changes.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:34 PM) I think I've said this before as well...but if that's true, then KW needs to hand in his resignation letter. You would hope that he has that sort of integrity, but even that would leave the team in a bad position. If a person as outgoing and vocal as KW can't get Ozzie out, there is no chance for a guy like Hahn or whoever the replacement is. Ozzie would run this ship from top to bottom.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:32 PM) If you want this to be the end of the Ozzie Guillen era, that's exactly what should be done. That's the only thing that keeps me going, Balta. The only ray of hope at the end of this tunnel is that it will necessitate some big changes. That has been my biggest hope since the first few weeks of the season.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:29 PM) Then KW needs to make it change. He can tell Ozzie to start Viciedo on a regular basis in LF or he can lose his job. He should not give a f*** what Ozzie believes makes sense. KW needs to do whatever gives his team its best chance to win and that is calling up Viciedo and DFA'ing Pierre. Time is running out. If I were KW, I'd make these moves soon, because missing the playoffs will probably cost me my job. I've already mentioned this, but Kenny Williams does not have the power to fire Ozzie Guillen. It's a major problem.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:28 PM) I'm not not making an argument that it's right. I'm just saying this is what he is going to do, and it's probably not different from what most managers would do. There really isn't another option currently on this team or in the system from Ozzie's point of view. I see his rationale but I don't really agree with it. OK, I don't agree with it either. But if he refuses to change his rationale and open his eyes, then he has to go. What are we arguing about?

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:26 PM) Viciedo is learning to play the OF. This is a fill in measure until Teahan is back healthy. Question is when we send McPherson down do we lose him like we did Gray? We do not need to call up Viciedo yet and if we did and he made some boo-boos in the OF costing us a game I am sure we would be screaming about that too First of all, who the f*** cares if we lose McPherson? As has already been said, Juan Pierre has been dreadful in the outfield. But we shouldn't make that move because Viciedo could potentially be worse while also potentially giving us far greater offensive production. Why do you say that we don't have to call up Viciedo yet? Because we seem to be playing pretty terribly and we could use any amount of help that we can get. But you know what we should do? Just stick with the status quo for another month or two. That ought to get us right out of the hole that we've dug ourselves.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:25 PM) Remember the debacle of putting a non-leadoff type guy with a career high OBP in the leadoff spot? Ozzie does. When the Sox tried Swisher who had a high career OBP, he couldn't handle the leadoff position and had his worst year. This experiment just reinforced Ozzie's idea of the leadoff hitter archetype. I can certainly remember the debacle of having Juan Pierre in the leadoff spot

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:25 PM) It's not the move itself. The hilariousness of "All In" just got more pronounced. If you want to look at an organization that's truly "All In," it's the Royals, who are taking a shot this year even though it might end up costing them ten of millions with Hosmer. Viciedo is a sunk cost. We're already committed to paying him $10 million plus. And it's not like we didn't see him have the ability to hit last year. He was pretty much signed TO HIT, with that as his #1 skill. Yet somehow, when we're going up against teams like TEX, CLE, the Dodgers, then hit the road against Texas, Toronto and Boston, we're supposed to be inspired that Dallas McPherson will actually contribute something positive??? It's predictable, but it sucks and I have a feeling we'll be wondering months or years from now if bringing up Viciedo earlier could have sparked the White Sox offense instead of going down in flames with the veteran Pierre. Caulfield, this is an awesome post.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:18 PM) I'm not saying it's right. All I'm saying is that that is what is going to happen. Vizquel is too old to handle the duty full time. Lillibridge is has proven that he can't handle full time duty and Rios is more of a run producer. Ozzie knows Pierre is off to a bad start but he also thinks that based on history he will get better. What's the quote that Stone uses "look at the back of the baseball card." I know you dislike Ozzie but this is what he and most other mangers will do. You can let it frustrate you all you want but it's not changing. If neither Lillibridge nor Vizquel can handle the full time duty, perhaps they can share it . Rios hasn't been much of a run producer, that's for sure. But he's fast and is a better hitter than Pierre. I can look at the back of Roberto Alomar's baseball card. I think he'd be a great fit as our leadoff hitter. Oh wait, his skill set is so diminished that he cannot suffice anymore? That seems to be the same problem with Pierre. Oh well, Pierre is already on the team so he should be fine. It boils down to this. The best argument anyone can make in favor of this move is "it is what it is."

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:17 PM) How about since the offense blows we bring up our best young bat in the minors? Or we could "stay the course" and continue to be "All in." But the moves aren't related. You're wrong.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:05 PM) Because Ozzie will not have a leadoff hitter. This is the way most mangers want their team constructed and there would be no one capable of filling this role if Pierre is not in the lineup. I'm not sure why you don't understand this from past tendencies with Ozzie's lineups. Look, Juan Pierre is the worst player in baseball. Anybody would be better than him. If it absolutely must be a fast guy, then it can be Lillibridge or Vizquel or Rios. "I'm not sure why you don't understand this from past tendencies with Ozzie's lineups." This argument is so flawed. You're basically saying that, because Ozzie is bad at managing and sticks to a bad theory of who has to lead off, we have to be content with his decision to leave Pierre in the leadoff spot. And even if that were the case, I just mentioned three other guys who are capable of taking his spot.

QUOTE (ptatc @ May 17, 2011 -> 05:01 PM) Everyone is acting like Ozzie is the only manager that wants the speedy, pitcher-disrupting guy at the top of the lineup. Almost every manager tries to do this. I hate to tell everyone this but the guy who replaces Ozzie will try to do the same thing. Perhaps that guy will know the difference between a good speedy player and a bad speedy player. I would hope that most managers, upon realizing that their leadoff hitter is the worst professional baseball player in the game, would go to the next best option.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ May 17, 2011 -> 04:54 PM) Exactly. But why hasn't KW done this already? Is he afraid of upsetting Ozzie or does he actually believe Pierre will turn around too? I don't think he has the power to do so. Despite the fact that Kenny should have power over Ozzie, I don't believe he does. In this sense, Reinsdorf's loyalty to these guys and his seeming refusal to fire either sort of handcuffs the team. Ozzie is the type of guy that needs to be put in line from time to time. What we have now is Ozzie knowing that he's immune and that Kenny has no power over him to fire him, and if Kenny makes a move that Ozzie doesn't like, he will just not play the person or put him in position to fail constantly. Ozzie has a gigantic ego on him (as does KW), but now he doesn't even have to fear any type of reprisal (accountability) from his GM. A guy like Ozzie is going to run wild with the knowledge that he can't be fired. It's a bad recipe from the get-go. Kenny needs to have the power to s***can Ozzie. And if he had that power, I truly believe that Ozzie would be long gone already.

QUOTE (3E8 @ May 17, 2011 -> 04:51 PM) Pierre stays no matter what. If Ozzie ever makes Viciedo the starting LF, Brent hits Lilliwaivers. Also yup.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ May 17, 2011 -> 04:16 PM) The issue here is that Ozzie would not use Viciedo properly if he were brought up right now, and it would be a waste. As long as Pierre is in a White Sox uniform he will be starting almost every game. In order to bring up Viciedo and for him to be used properly, Pierre has to be gone. Yup.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ May 17, 2011 -> 03:57 PM) There is no need to bring up Dallas in the first place. That's the whole point. Make a move that actually helps your team. Subbing Dallas for Teahen does nothing since he'll be riding bench anyway. Bring up Dayan with the extra roster spot and have him play for Pierre. Why is this so hard for people to understand? God damn it, thank you! Like I said, though, I've just checked out on convincing anybody of anything. There's always going to be an excuse.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 17, 2011 -> 03:55 PM) No, I read the whole thread, thank you very little. You are mad that Viciedo has not been brought up yet to replace Pierre. You've made that abundantly clear and I think most people on this board would like to see that move made as well, sooner rather than later. However, where this thread has been somewhat confusing is the manifestation of outrage over Viciedo not replacing Teahen for the ten days that Teahen will be out. That move makes no sense at all, because unless Pierre is moved, Viciedo is not going to play, so it would be a waste of time for him to be up with the Sox sitting on the bench, when he could be playing every day for Charlotte. That seems pretty crystal clear to me. As for your prediction about Pierre's return to the lead-off spot, my gut says no, he won't, unless he has legitimately earned it. I think if he continues to scuffle and Tank continues to crush, the move we are all clamoring for will be made in the next couple of weeks. Just a gut feeling on that one, is all. I've responded to every single point you made in this. Whatever, I really have checked out on caring about what this team does and caring about getting everyone to see my points. Everyone can enjoy making excuses the rest of the season, as there will be plenty of things to make excuses for.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 17, 2011 -> 03:53 PM) Still don't see the relationship. Its not like Dallas and Dayan would be sharing a ride up to Chicago or something. The roster moves have no depedency on each other. Because we had an open opportunity to get Viciedo onto the major league club today and it would have avoided the awkwardness between Pierre and Ozzie that so obviously is affecting the decision to call him up. We could have called up a player that could directly help the team immediately, but they called up a useless retread.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 17, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) I see the same opportunity, I just think its unrelated. Dallas subbing for Teahen makes perfect sense to me. So does getting rid of Pierre and replacing with Viciedo. And considering the fact that we have absolutely no time to waste to improve this team and get back into the race, the move to improve the club should be made as soon as possible. That move could've been made today with a necessary call-up. We don't have the time to screw around like we are.