Dick Allen

It's too bad we didn't get to see Lindstrom closing for most of this season. It would have been epic.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 02:43 PM) Some team will be, he has an excellent track record in the NFL so far. Yeah, but he might love the idea of being the King of Ann Arbor. Personally, if I were him, I would stay in the NFL instead of BSing 17 year olds in an attempt to have them play for you. But maybe he wouldn't mind that. Michigan probably gives him a long term committment at huge dollars. Maybe he knows his schtick doesn't play long in the NFL, but works out well with guys who are younger and will be gone within 4 or 5 years. Again, I agree, if he leaves SF, another NFL team probably offers him a sweet gig. But it wouldn't shock me if he ultimately wound up in Ann Arbor. He is kind of a unique guy. I actually played cards with him a long time ago when he was on the Bears.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 06:52 PM) They had a terrific offensive club, but endured some of the lousiest pitching ever conceived. Their poor fans were subjected to a steady diet of retread/reclamation attempts and the suckage was legendary. Sounds familiar.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 02:29 PM) Your argument only makes sense if you assume teams are actually scared off by name value only, and not by actual performance. I give the teams more credit than that. Victor Martinez has been the best hitter on that team, by far, all year. Right now, yes, I would rather walk Martinez and face Cabrera if there was a good situation for an intentional walk. Also, the fact the VMart is a switch hitter is a HUGE factor. You can have the platoon advantage with him, but you can get past him to someone where you DO have the platoon advantage. If VMart has twice as many IBBs as Cabrera in a year where Cabrera is substantially better, then I can see where you'd have an argument. EDIT: Once again, I'm open to the idea of finding evidence for lineup protection, but pointing out that a team's best hitter has more IBB than the team's other hitters does not qualify as said evidence. So you really think if the hit exactly the same way but lined them up Victor/Cabrera/JD, Cabrera still would only have 10 IBB and Victor still would have 27, assuming first base was open the exact same amount? I think you are way off.

QUOTE (1dog @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 02:35 PM) I would have given Victor something to LOOK AT there, right behind his head. If we sign that fool, I will be pissed. Middle of the order hitters with power, who lead the league in getting on base, and rarely strike out, are total fools. We certainly don't need to see his type on the White Sox.

Hawk knows what is going on inside the team as much as anyone. I can't believe his comments a few weeks ago saying if you want to win, you have to spend money, went pretty much un noticed. You will be able to tell where the Sox think they are in this rebuild by their payroll. If it is as low as many are anticipating, they don't really think winning is probable. If they add a couple of guys making some cash, they believe they can win. JR mentioned a back of the rotation starter. I think it's safe to assume a back of the rotation starter is added. A LH bat will definitely be added, and a couple of bullpen pieces. Hopefully, a couple of the current bullpen pieces will pull a Cotts/Politte and be stellar next year. A young guy emerges, and suddenly this team is cooking with gas.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 01:47 PM) How does the fact that the guy that leads the league in IBB bats in FRONT of a guy having an awesome season support the idea of protection? Doesn't that simply support the idea that the best hitters get mroe IBBs regardless of who hits behind them? Miquel Cabrera, MVP each of the last 2 years, generally regarded as the best hitter in baseball, has 17 fewer intention passes than a guy you don't want the White Sox to have any part of. 27 times Victor Martinez didn't get to hit because JD Martinez was protecting him. 10 times, Miquel Cabrera didn't get to hit. Assuming Victor was in the line up each of those 10 times, it is a significant difference. As I stated, Victor has a far better reputation and total resume than JD. Do you really truly think if Cabrera and Victor were flip flopped, Victor would still have 27 IBB if the next guy up was Miquel Cabrera?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 12:37 PM) I don't think anyone cares anymore at this point. It's also relevant since Sale/Kluber/Felix are the three relevant names in consideration at this point for the Cy Young. Sale throwing an easy 96 MPH in the first...great move by Ventura to walk Victor Martinez and not let him beat you, despite how good JD Martinez has been this year. Maddon would routinely walk Miggy Cabrera with a runner at 1B and two outs to put two runners on, with one pushed into scoring position. Hawk and Stone mentioned Cabrera has been intentionally walked 10 times this season. Victor has been intentionally walked 27 coming into today's game. A case against the protection doesn't mean a thing crowd. And that is with JD Martinez putting up numbers probably close to equal to Miggy's. Reputations matter as well.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 10:37 AM) Good stuff, DA. The only thing that would make Davidson a superior prospect to Allen would be their positions. And the line Arizona leaked was they didn't think Davidson could stick at 3B. I am sure , though, that was at least a little PR induced, although he isn't exactly Adrian Beltre with the glove. It doesn't matter now. I hope Davidson is better and can buck the odds and be what they thought he would be. It is just that right now, that doesn't seem like a bet many would take. The odds are better than winning the Powerball. So we have that going for us.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 10:16 AM) And I'd say that talent-wise, even after this season, Davidson is still better than Allen. Allen was rated #85 the offseason after he was traded and 99 the offseason before he was dealt. As a 23 year old in 167 AB at Reno hit .324/.413/1.055 with 12 HR and 25 K. His numbers did drop a little as a 24 year old, but he still was putting up an OPS over 900 and struck out at about 65% of Davidson's rate. Saying Davidson is better is based on nothing.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 10:06 AM) The White Sox once traded Brandon Allen for pitcher Tony Pena. Brandon Allen never did anything, hit .203 across 4 big league seasons. Technically we won that deal. I still didn't like it and still ugh at the thought of it today. There were some guarantees of All Star appearances the night of that trade for Allen. Reed is better than Pena though. White Sox prospects have been so bad, any with a pulse gave people hope in that era.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 09:56 AM) To equate the Reed hypothetical to the scenario you just envisioned, we would need to be sending Davidson to another team in exchange for a statistically declining reliever making a decent relievers salary. You are the one who mentioned the three horseman of the Suck-pocalypse as some sort of equals, not me. Again, no one is trading anyone for those guys, so your scenario doesn't work outside of an opportunity to mention failed relievers as a non-sequitur. I never mentioned trading any of them. I just said if the trade was the other way, and Hahn got Reed for Davidson, all those saying they would still rather have Davidson would be singing a different tune. They would say he won the trade. On a board where people actually rip the manager for not using Snodgrass in a key situation, a guy who has retired 7 hitters in his career and has given up 7 runs 8 hits and 3 walks, it boggles my mind people just don't want to say it turned out that the Reed/Davidson swap didn't work outfor the White Sox. People can hold out hope, but when you hit .199 with 164 strikeouts in year 2 of AAA , you are going to be an exception if you become useful at the big league level.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 09:37 AM) Today, would you be trading prospects for Beli, Downs, or Lindstrom? Get off it indeed. That is not what I wrote. I haven't seen anyone complain about the price for those guys, which is about equal to or more than what Reed will cost next season, let alone his near minimum this year. If $3 million is expensive, Addison Reed's replacement is going to be just as expensive or even more than him.

This is hysterical. If Rick Hahn traded Matt Davidson and he hit .199 with 164 strikeouts in AAA for Arizona and acquired Addison Reed, the people who still say they would rather have Davidson, would not be saying that. Matt Davidson sucks. He cannot make contact against AAA pitchers. Look at all the high k guys who are at least anywhere near mediocre at the major league level and look at their k rates in AAA. Not only can't he hit, he is bad defensively. I also love the "about to become expensive" line. What, expensive like Belisario or Downs or Lindstrom? Get off it, he isn't going to be expensive unless he is lights out, and if he was lights out, it sure would look good in the White Sox bullpen. A lot better than some guy flailing away in Charlotte.

Flowers has pretty much held his own vs last seasons top FA catchers in McCann and Salty. IMO, I would not mind an upgrade because I think he is just too inconsistent. While the overall numbers wind up OK, and he has had some big hits, it seems to be he is just totally worthless for stretches which are too long. Everyone slumps, but Tyler seems to take his to anither level. And I still don't understand going after Martin if you don't think you can win next year. If you think the Sox are at least 2016 or probably 2017 away from contending, paying him all that money to hopefully still be effective at that point is questionable at best. Martin in the AL with the Yankees wasn't much better overall than the current edition of Tyler Flowers. Even fangraphs agrees. Paying a 32 year old catcher based on his 2014 career type season, basically for his services in 2017-2018, probably would wind up like the Wiley Coyote.

So a 33 year old SS won't be part of the next White Sox contender but the Sox should open the check book for a 32 year old catcher and be willing to go 4 years and $60 million. You have been saying Alexei will slip for at least 2 year. Why wouldn't that apply to Martin?

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 22, 2014 -> 01:32 PM) They can only deal with the talent given them. I don't think anyone's blaming Ventura for defense...except for the consistent lollygagging that was seen out of some players. Managers can make proper lineup decisions, bullpen decisions, strategic decisions, and handle the clubhouse properly so that the team plays hard. Manager is very important. One person wants to compare Ventura to Madden; the next to a 2X WS champion manager. For some reason people hold Ventura up as some White Sox icon above all critique. No one compared Ventura to Maddon. YOU were the one that said if you lose 90 games in consecutive seasons the manager has fault. I just pointed out Maddon managed 2 really bad teams and according to your criteria, he should now be Joe, from State Farm. Robin has been fine. The bullpen was terrible. You yourself said he had 2 starters. What is his record supposed to be? The game thread is this was wrong that was wrong, all after the fact. Maddon pitched to Abreu with 1B open Saturday night and a runner on 2nd. He was retired, but if Robin does something like that, even if it works out, he is considered a fool and no genius like the guys who do the same thing. Francona pitched to Abreu 3 times in 2 games with 1B open and got burned 3 times. I could only imagine what would happen if Ventura did that.

A minute or 2 short of 4 hours.

Snoddy doesn't appear to be of major league quality.

I wonder if there is a Rays message board somewhere where posters are embarrassed by thei lackluster effort vs. the White Sox B team, and blaming it on the manager.

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Sep 21, 2014 -> 01:39 PM) Hawk talking Wilkins up, who k'd again He could bury the guy, but that won't make him hit. I am sure he knows what he is seeing.

Avi has increased his walk rate, although it still isn't great, and seems to be hitting fewer groundballs. Despite the red flags, he has a better chance than most of becoming a beast. It is hard to judge him by numbers now since he missed all that time. Semien with a bomb. Hawk as excited about this 4-0 lead as he would be on opening day. Even his haters have to appreciate that.

QUOTE (flavum @ Sep 21, 2014 -> 11:50 AM) On the tanking thing...I'm not saying teams purposefully take the field with the intention of losing. I'm saying maybe teams play 4A guys, or go to 6-man rotations, or shut down their best pitcher with a couple weeks left. Teams have their own agendas at the end of the season that don't match others playing for the postseason. Bottom line for me, it would be a good idea just to eliminate that an individual game could have a huge impact on the draft order. But that hurts the product in the future. One good thing about being out of contention is giving these types of players AB not only for their development, but for the team to be able to evaluate. Just reading this board, many were excited to see these guys play this September. I really doubt you will ever see a lottery. All a lottery really does is tells your customer base teams can't be trusted to give you 100% effort, and really, while it maybe has helped somewhat, in the NBA, there are a lot of teams still playing not to win.

QUOTE (flavum @ Sep 21, 2014 -> 11:28 AM) So you're saying that 20 teams in any given year will be trying not to make the playoffs? That makes no sense. Would you play for a small shot at a wild card or a shot at a really high pick? One problem with your scenerio is it is one thing when bad teams tank but the average and slightly above average teams would be given more motivation mot to take a shot at a wild card spot. I don't see how this stops tanking and I don't think it is rampant anyway. Let the bad teams draft the better players. Most still need to be developed anyway.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 21, 2014 -> 11:21 AM) It is a stupid idea because it ruins the overall product to have a significant portion of the league attempting to fail at one time. Bud can be ripped for many things but I think this wild card play in game is genius. In this lottery scenerio being mentioned I wonder how many teams instead of trying to get one of those slots might not play for a shot at a really high draft pick.