Dick Allen

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 2, 2013 -> 11:03 AM) Reyes is a much better player than Ramirez. Even if he is, you want to move him along and pay half his salary. Better be careful Marty. You are being exposed.

When Stone said during the last game of the year he was hoping to be without Hawk for a weekend next July or August because Hawk would be in Cooperstown, they must have known this news. I hope he gets it.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 2, 2013 -> 10:33 AM) Alexei Ramirez is due $20 million over the next two years and put up a 3.1 WAR last year. You are suggesting that the White Sox trade him for 2.5 WAR Jose Reyes and $66 million more guaranteed dollars, you eat $33 million of that, and then you trade Jose Reyes. Think about the logistics of that and how wrong and backwards that is. I have to believe he knows how little any of this makes sense, but he gets a kick out of arguing and thinking he's driving people crazy.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 2, 2013 -> 10:33 AM) Absolutely. Dick Allen you can offer a team a damn near 3 WAR a year SS for $8M a year that will have value. Again what type of prospect considering you are giving up your own 3 WAR SS and $33 million?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Oct 2, 2013 -> 10:25 AM) What does history say about 99 loss teams? what do they do on average the following year? what's a reasonable expectation? Any of them ever make the playoffs? I don't know how to answer those, but I have some hunches as to what the answers might be. I do know when the Sox last lost 96 or 97 games, they won 90 the next year with the Southside Hitmen. This team seems to be in a better financial position to land some talent. Obviously they are going to need some breaks and some guys to really step up.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 2, 2013 -> 10:21 AM) You don't think there would be a good market for Reyes at 33M?? A 2.5+ WAR SS and a team could get him at 8M per? So you want the Sox to basically trade Ramirez and $33 million for a prospect. I am ROTFL as I type this. What kind of prospect? It is clear you are trolling. You mentioned last time how your way was better than the Sox going out and signing Abreu, then later said you didn't know the first thing about Abreu.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 2, 2013 -> 08:58 AM) This is not correct. A hit leads more directly to a run, but if that guy doesn't get anything to hit, but swings away because he is trying to get a hit and ends up rolling over a slider, what does that do? The mantra should be "swing at good pitches, don't swing at bad pitches." There are certain situations where you will try and place a ball a certain way - hitting behind a runner, hitting a flyball - but you need to swing at good pitches. If you put hitters in the mindset that "I'd rather you get a hit with a runner on 2nd as opposed to taking a walk," then your hitters are more apt to swing at bad pitches trying to get hits. I get and understand what he means - you ALWAYS prefer a base hit over a walk - but it's just a terrible way of phrasing it. People wished that Thomas did that and they want Joey Votto to do more of that, but those guys have such an incredible grasp of the strike zone that they generally will only swing at pitches they can hit hard. Those guys both probably have taken pitches they could have hit hard too, but with those types of guys, you shouldn't mess with them. With Dunn coming off his 2011 season, you could mess with him. And to be fair to Manto, he didn't say expand your zone to the point you will swing at anything. It's kind of like hitting 3 and 0. Some guys can, some guys think it's a must swing. His point was driving in the runner without getting a hit sometimes is more beneficial than drawing a walk.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 09:00 PM) The price of a WAR is what $6-$7M ? Upton was roughly a 2 war player with Tampa. $30M is a bargain. Now you are back to trolling again.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 08:17 PM) I could be wrong maybe there would be no market for Upton at $30M. We just don't know. It is not only $30 million, its also a prospect worthwhile of the Sox' $30 million.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 07:52 PM) Bad contract (Dunn) for bad contract (Upton) might have been feasible... But how many prospects could you argue were worth $30 million at age 18 or 19? Maybe Harper or Griffey, Jr.? Let alone why would a team give up any reasonable prospect for BJUpton and a $30 million committment? He was Adam Dunn 2011 bad in 2013. I wouldn't trade Dunn for Upton. $15 million vs. $60 million.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 07:47 PM) There's a lot we don't know in order to decide if that is a true statement or not. I think we do. If a team was willing to give up that nice of a prospect, the Braves wouldn't need the White Sox help. They would gain a better player than Upton at half the cost. Seriously, I know you will always have to have the final word, but your idea, to put it politely, is unrealistic.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 06:54 PM) I believe there is at least one team out that would jump at the chance to get Upton at $30M in the belief that he will bounce back to his Tampa performance level. Even if there was, which is not likely, there isn't one willing to give up a prospect worth anywhere near the $30 million your proposal has the Sox eating. A prospect worth anywhere near that figure is far more desirable than Upton,and $30 million for mediocre prospect is a ridiculous waste of money. Back to the drawing board.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 06:35 PM) Because they don't want to chance spending $90M on the Hunter Pences of the world? Again you are making no sense. Why trade a prospect who can easily out perform Upton while making minimum or close for 3 years for a .557 OPS guy and owe him $30 million? And if the prospect isn't someone who can outperform that, why in the world would a team spend $30 million on crap like that? It would make zero sense to the White Sox, and zero sense to a team Upton would be passed along. It would be great for the Braves. Dumb organizations wouldn't even do this.

Manto was pretty classy about his firing: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/cws/after-...p;vkey=news_cws

The one thing about De Aza is he didn't seem to be this stupid before 2013. He either suffered brain damage in the offseason, or it may be correctible. I think they would move him if they can get value for him, but if they give him away, it would be a mistake IMO.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 05:43 PM) This is true, from what I understand. You need Pitch F/X data to really tell without watching him consistently. An unusually high number of Latino pitchers end up as relievers in the MLB, and many scouts (at least the media scouts whose podcasts keep me entertained during workouts) believe this is because the players are encouraged to take advantage of bad mechanics to maximize their velocity and stuff in showcases. The result is a delivery that is difficult to repeat and thus below-average control. So if you assume that pitchers in the Cuban league throw a lot of bad pitches, you could speculate that Abreu's successful high-OBP approach may not translate to the MLB. However, that's more of an argument to throw out his good numbers than to suggest he has a bad approach. We may not be able to prove he ISN'T a free swinger, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence whatsoever to conclude that he IS a free swinger. For the first little bit of Contreras' White Sox career, and when El Duque was here, I was starting to wonder if it was a rule in Cuba that the count must reach 3 and 2 with every batter.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 05:42 PM) Plus, what would the sox have to give up to acquire the bloated payroll AND cost effective prospects? Bernstein's idea works in the NBA because of salary caps and luxury tax, and if you pick high, your draft pick makes an immediate impact., but he got his sports screwed up as he mentioned the Salary cap his first draft of this article. There is no salary cap in baseball. Marty then tried to fix this theory up for baseball and thought the Sox could get a guy like BJ Upton who is owed $60 million the next 4 years and put up a .557 OPS while fanning more frequently per AB than Adam Dunn this year, and who hasn't put up .760 OPS for 5 years, eat $30 million, and have a team give you a worthwhile prospect for BJ Upton and that $30 million. This is beyond flawed. Why would a team commit $30 million for Upton and give up someone who could easily outperform him at a fraction of the cost? And why would the White Sox spend $30 million on a non can't miss stud prospect? The only one that wins is the Braves. But as was pointed out before with Bernstein's plan, the teams dumping these players need the prospects to take that spot. Add in the new TV money, I really don't think there are desperate teams out there.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 01:50 PM) When talking about the Sveum firing, Dan McNeil asked Dan Bernstein if he would have been upset if the Sox fired Ventura and he said no. Interestingly, Bernstein brought up the hypothetical of replacing Ventura with Guillen again. McNeil said Guillen had burned too many bridges and Bernstein replied paraphrasing that Kenny Williams is largely out of the picture. Anyway, I think someone in the Sox organization has told Bernstein to not be surprised if Guillen returns as manager one day because he continues to talk about it. If Bernstein's sources tell him KW is largely out of the picture, he needs new sources.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 10:46 AM) I understand and generally agree with this. What I'm saying is that, when looking at this list, who are you going to commit significant money to long term? (and keep in mind that the list is a little outdated as both Pence and Utley have signed extensions) McCann and Abreu would be the targets. If failed, Hart, Granderson, Morales, Morse, Choo, maybe Salty, and even DeJesus are guys I would consider signing. I would also ask Cooper about the pitchers. It could be the Sox have to trade pitching to get hitting, so they could sign a pitcher or 2, although that could get very risky. I think the top 5 ERA teams in the AL made the playoffs and the 6 NL playoff teams in the NL were in the top 7.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 10:35 AM) Honestly, I think the only two guys that make a lot of sense for the Sox right now are Abreu and McCann (or maybe Saltalamacchia). I think the most I go is probably 7/$70 for Abreu, 4/$60 for McCann, and 4/$40 for Saltalamacchia. Really, if they don't get 2 out of those 3, can you really find anybody that they should spend signficant money on over the course of mulitple years? Anyone who can hit and get on base, and actually run the bases with a Pony League IQ, makes sense for the White Sox. If anyone goes with trends, unless they are in a total rebuild, usually went the Sox have a season as dissappointing as this, they snap back the next year with a decent team. 1977,1985, (1987-1989 total rebuild) 1996,2000,2008. They have to speed up the process when they have a guy like Sale in place. It would be silly having him on the roster for 3 or 4 more meaningless seasons and not just because he might get injured, but because any and all pitchers might get injured. 3 or 4 or 5 years from now, it's possible he tails off.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 1, 2013 -> 07:34 AM) “There’s no pressure whatsoever to hire a big-name manager,” Epstein said. “We want to hire the right manager. We’re at a critical point in our building process where our very best prospects are soon going to be young big-league players. “It’s absolutely imperative that we create the best environment possible for young players to come up here, continue to learn, continue to develop and thrive at the big-league level – and win, ultimately.” Winning has been an afterthought at the big-league level, but the Cubs feel like elite prospects Javier Baez and Kris Bryant will keep moving fast through the system. As Starlin Castro, Anthony Rizzo and Darwin Barney struggled to make adjustments this season, Sveum, the hitting coaches and the front office got their wires crossed. “We need to hire a manager and ultimately hire a staff that presents a unified message to young players,” Epstein said, “because the big leagues are hard enough. It’s confusing enough. We need to help them along that way and not get in their way at times.” Epstein swung and missed on his first managerial hire here. One hundred and ninety-seven losses later, the Cubs have collected dozens of interesting prospects. But inevitably there will be questions about the guys picking the players, whether it’s investing $100 million in Castro and Rizzo or giving Edwin Jackson $52 million or trading for and re-signing Ian Stewart. lots of lessons to be taken away from the Sveum experience for the Cubs... what about the Ventura/Bell/Hahn experience for the White Sox? http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article/c...p;vkey=news_chc Two totally different situations. I agree with the people who think Theo hired Sveum as a placeholder. Let him take a horrible team a couple of years and put up with the losing, and then when you are ready to get a little better or it appears things are coming apart, which the last month the losing seemed to take it's toll, make the change to the guy you want to lead them when they are expected to be good and the new guy won't be beaten down and want to flee because of the previous losing. Also, the jury is still out on Theo with the Cubs. You can win the best prospect trophy, but like the attendance trophy, it doesn't mean much unless those prospects actually become productive major leaguers.

In 2005, the Tigers finished 28 games behind the White Sox and added Kenny Rogers to their staff. In 2006 they played in the World Series. Turnarounds can be done quickly, especitally when you have good pitchers in place, a couple of potentially good hitters, and a lot of money to burn. The last time the Sox had a season as bad as this one, or almost as bad was 1976. They had no money to spend, yet 1977 was a fun year with 90 wins. Last offseason, we really didn't find out much about Rick Hahn. This offseason, it will be exactly the opposite. As bad as this season was, White Sox news-wise this winter should be a lot of fun. Last winter was kind of boring.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 30, 2013 -> 02:37 PM) The point is that the entire White Sox roster -- save Adam Dunn, who had a disastrous early season bout of "humility" inspired by Sox coaches -- is full of dudes that swing at bad pitches and get themselves out. So while you're right that Semien's example may not be damning evidence, but it fits with the overarching trend, and that trend is a bad one. I think that is because of the type of hitters they are, not because Jeff Manto says do this do that. Manto actually preached contact. You wouldn't know it watching them hit. Thinking he's saying go up there, make sure you don't walk and swing as hard as you can in case you hit it is just not the truth. People erroneously thought Walker preached that as well. Remember the old "lift and pull"? I think Semien will be better, but not because they are changing hitting coaches. Hopefully he becomes a star and gives the new guy all the credit. I don't really care about walk rates as long as a guy is swinging a good pitches to hit, the only thing being if you generally are only swinging at decent pitches to hit, you most likely are going to walk a fair share of time. There have been a couple of exceptions, and the Sox are probably pinning a lot of their hopes on Garcia who probably is going to have to be an exception.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 30, 2013 -> 02:14 PM) I don't blame him for the results, but I do blame him for the approach. Because practically every player on the team has a hitting approach that stops working around the HS varsity level. And when you get a guy who has an extremely advanced approach come up and suddenly start swinging at everything, you can't help but wonder. It seems every White Sox prospect has 0 or 1 walks and 20+ strikeouts their first 70 ABs in the major leagues. I still don't know how you pin that on the major league hitting coach. He isn't going to be changing their approach immediately. Guys are overmatched. They are facing better pitchers than they have in the past, plus they are probably trying to show they are worthy and being a little or far too aggressive. Hopefully, Semien settles down and becomes a good hitter at the major league level.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 30, 2013 -> 02:11 PM) Trading Peavy did that -- I'm not sure that Santiago is that big of a deal. He had a nice ERA, but his peripherals suggest he's more of a 4.25 ERA guy, and if that's what we have to move to upgrade somewhere else, we shouldn't hesitate. Another way to look at it -- the pitching was a strength all year, and we lost 100 games. I'll take a more average staff if it means not having a league worst-esque offense and defense. I really don't think the White Sox think Santiago is that big of a deal. No inside knowledge, just putting 2 and 2 together.