Dick Allen

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:37 PM) Are we supposed to be bringing in elite talent for Quentin and Frasor? If you would have read what I posted, I'm not mad at this particular trade, but some are going to make these "prospects" out to be far more than they really are. For Quentin, I'm not upset they traded him, it was very obvious it would happen. I think the return is like this return. Nothing. I believe he should be worth a little more than that.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:34 PM) And if that 5% comes in then he cost controlled for 6 years. That's kind of the point of stocking up on arms. Stocking up on mediocre at best talent doesn't get you victories. With all the minor leaguers KW has acquired this winter, how much has the Sox farm system moved up ? I'm guessing not very far.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:32 PM) Kenny needs to start raiding bad farm systems rather than the best in the game just so he can start getting some top 10-15 prospects. People are WAY too hung up on that s***. I don't care how good your farm system is, if a guy isn't in your top 20, he's not very elite, even if it makes him a top 5 or top 10 in the White Sox system.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:26 PM) Of course it's a salary dump. But Jaye is interesting. Not Nestor Molina interesting, but a projectable prep arm interesting. And not being in the top 25 doesn't tell the whole story considering the Blue Jays have the best farm system in baseball. He can be interesting like KW Jr. can be interesting or the Sox drafting Ozney Guillen could be interesting, but reality is this guy has probably less than a 5% chance of ever being as good of a major league pitcher as Jason Frasor is right now, and no one is too upset Jason was sent backing for nothing.

QUOTE (Cali @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:26 PM) Baseball is such a funny sport. You can have a MAJOR flaw in your game, like control issues as a pitcher -- which I'd say is the ONE thing most pitchers need to have to make it -- and still get drafted. Can you imagine a QB that overthrew his receivers all the time getting picked? On the flipside, there are plenty of "receivers" in the NFL, making millions who have a tough time catching the ball.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:21 PM) Both of them are down at A ball/recent draftees, so even if they wind up being great pitchers, they woulnd't be highly ranked yet. One guy was drafted in 2009, the other in 2010. If they had shown they were future major leaguers, they would crack a team's top 25.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:15 PM) I'd probably agree. Just saying Jaye is mildly interesting as a prospect. According to Sickels, these guys aren't in Toronto's top 25, so while there is always a chance either could pan out, they probably won't, which indicates to me, salary dump.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:08 PM) Jaye has some value. The Sox and others likely passed on him because he was seeking and received an overslot bonus. Hopefully you know by now how utterly cheap the Sox are in the draft. Maybe the guy KW hired from Toronto has a boner for the guy, but KW did risk over $3 million on Frasor for at least a little while. I doubt the plan was to pick up his option and trade him before spring training, although I suppose its possible. Again, I'm not upset about this trade. Its really a salary dump and I don't think of Frasor as much of a difference maker, although he can be really good.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 12:57 PM) Because he just got a few more pitchers for him? Isn't it obvious that they felt they could trade him at some point and get some value out of him? There doesn't seem to be much "value". The 22 year old has been terrible and the other kid the Sox passed on drafting 17 times. I don't necessarily think this is a bad trade, it may enable the Sox to sign the Cuban or bring someone else on board, but the current return is really nothing and considering they could have let him walk for nothing, it makes picking up his option a curious decision, but as it works out, no harm, no foul.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 12:55 PM) Jaye has no track record. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=jaye--001myl Webb has been awful http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=webb--001rob Either KW was counting on dumping some other salary he will be keeping or his planning on adding some.

I don't understand picking up the option if you are planning on dumping him for basically nothing. At the very least, you are risking Frasor getting injured in the interim. The only thing that makes sense is something has now presented itself and the Sox wanted the extra cash to spend on that. If not, its a real head scratcher picking up his option in the first place.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 11:10 PM) It's bizarre to me that competing in 2012 is so important. The goal is sustained excellence. Its also bizarre to me that a guy like you who says all the Sox players are worth about nothing on the trade market still wants to get rid of them and lose 100 games a year so you can have better draft picks. Everyone wants to be the Tampa Bay Rays. They had 10 years straight of 90 loss seasons before they turned it around. 10 years averaging 95 losses a season. There is no one here, not J4L not the milkman and not you that has patience for that.

Quentin, besides 2008, was an under appreciated hitter. Chances are he'll come up lame with something but if he plays 130 games he's a 30 homer 100 RBI guy. Those guys aren't as plentiful as they used to be. He improved a little bit defensively last year as well. Viciedo should have been playing in 2010, they needed a spot for him. I'm just dissappointed the return for Carlos Quentin is a couple of guys who will eventually be 6 year minor league free agents.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 06:08 PM) KW on trade. San Diego came back and obviously put something on the table that attracted us,” White Sox GM Ken Williams said. “Both of these guys are guys that we can ultimately see, and we can see them very quickly here.” He said the same thing about Marquez and Nunez.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 04:33 PM) Not to mention how can the difference between something like say $40 or $50 million even make sense to someone who has lived their life on rations? The majority of the NBA and MLB and NFL have lived the majority of their lives "on rations".

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:48 PM) If you look at the fangraphs world, last year he was worth about $12 million, so the surplus value if he repeated his 2011 season would be about $4 million. However, the 2 previous seasons, he was a negative value player, with his weak/injury riddle offense not offsetting his bad defense. Over the last 3 seasons, Carlos has averaged a $3.5 million player value, and he's getting paid $7-8 million. He had that 1 season, 2008, wehre he put up a $20 million value, but that was 4 seasons ago now. So he was worth $12 million last year, that's not bad, although fangraphs "worth" I have never taken too seriously. I think the only reason KW settled for this return is Viciedo. If he wasn't in the organization, KW would have held out for more or just kept Quentin.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:41 PM) Just like it did when the Marlins signed Wilson and Pujols? A little different situation. Chances are if Wilson and Pujols both had bank accounts that resembled the Cuban's current one, they are Marlins right now. Wilson was going home and Pujols wanted a no trade.

QUOTE (MurcieOne @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) I don't see this team returning to the playoffs while KW is still GM. He's NOT the GM to rebuild this roster. If Viciedo gives you what Quentin has given you, and De Aza can play everyday, it won't hurt the Sox winning percentage in 2012. Even if he gets $7 million to $8 million for 2012 and isn't signed beyond that, its seems hard for me to believe you can't get at least one top 10 prospect from somebody. Trading Quentin I can understand, I just don't like the haul.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:34 PM) Well, no s***. I'm looking at factors outside of money. I'm saying money is the most important, all that other stuff is way down on the list, but if he does sign with the Marlins he will point out the large Cuban community, the latin manager.......its just lip service.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:29 PM) Well, if he doesn't like them then we don't have a shot in hell. People do a lot crazier things than work with people they don't like in exchange for more money than others are willing to pay. I don't know what this guy is thinking, maybe he thinks of Alexei like a brother, but I don't think having Cubans on the roster or a large Cuban community gets him signed unless you are at the top or very close to the top bid.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:26 PM) Agreed, but that also is probably why the Marlins are in the driver's seat for him (Cuban presence in the community) All the points are valid, but its still probably coming down to the team that gives him the most money.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:25 PM) And wouldn't our strongest selling point to Cespedes be the strong Cuban presence currently in our starting lineup? I'm fairly certain that's our only strong selling point. It depends. I'd imagine he knows the Sox Cuban players. There's always a chance he doesn't like them.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:21 PM) If he stayed healthy, he'd never have been traded to SD. He was going regardless. Viciedo is playing RF and KW wasn't going to pay Quentin if he was healthy.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:18 PM) I'm not playing your silly little Cooper/Walker game. And I'm pretty sure you don't "count" on projects (that's what Castro's looking like right now) to do much of anything, there's typically a lot more hoping and praying going on than there is expectations. As I said, the rebuilders should be thrilled with this trade. Just thrilled. Of course in a couple of years they will be pissed off. One thing is for sure, KW just f***ed Quentin out of at least a few million. Going to SD isn't going to help him cash in on a contract.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:15 PM) You really will never get over Walker, will you> This has nothing to do with Walker, it has something to do with guys like Aardsma and Sisco and MacDougal..................despite the Soxtalk consensus, Coop will fix him really doesn't apply to the vast majority. There usually is a bigger reason why guys suck more than a slight adjustment.