Dick Allen

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 06:16 PM) This is extreme grasping for straws. Turner was awful. So is Martz, but he's a genius if he has good players. Turner wasn't bad with decent players either. 3 games into the season and the Bears playoff hopes are dwindling.

Ron Turner was clearly the problem with the Bears offense.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 04:32 PM) Then blame KW for that. Not Cooper. Cooper did his part. Just like with Thornton. Thornton to many now is overpaid. But that's based off of the pure domination that he was from '06 through last year. You keep referencing Gavin Floyd and his god-awful 4.50 ERA or whatever it is. What have the Phillies gotten from Freddy Garcia since the trade? What did Floyd provide for a more than reasonable cost from '08 through '10? Again, projects aren't the same. It's like going to Little Ceasers and expecting the same quality as you would from a much more mainstream establishment like Giordanos or even Pizza Hut. Don't ever blame Cooper for anything, and make sure Walker is blamed for everything with hitters. That must be part of the White Sox fan oath. I'm just saying look at them equally. I'm not calling for Cooper's head. All I'm saying is if it were a hitter and you would say the problem is Walker, you should then say the same about pitchers and Cooper.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 04:11 PM) Again, the standard for reclamation projects vs big money FA signings or first-round draft picks are not the same. They're not meant to last. This is what me and Shack got into. Shack claimed that "they're are more ways to skin a cat" then to scout, draft and develop. And he's right. My beef is that if that's your only means of surviving, you're in trouble. Because that's a dangerous game to play long-term. That should be a supplemental way of staying afloat. Not the only way. This organization's biggest failure without question is the blatant inability to produce from within. Contreras was given a rather lucrative extension. He also struggled when he came over and struggled a bit at the beginning of 2005 enough that a lot of Soxtalk wanted him traded for AJ Burnett which would have been a disaster.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 04:09 PM) Mainly, IMO, because that's the only stretch he was healthy for. So how do you know Dunn is fully healthy?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 03:55 PM) If he did, then he's nuts. He overthrew Williams. Knox would have had to be 20 yards down the field to catch that. Well he did make some slashing jester and then put up a 1 and a 3. It could mean anything.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 03:57 PM) Because Jose Contreras snapped off one of the best 25-30 game runs anyone has seen. I was Contreras' biggest backer on this board. You don't have to give me a history lesson, but if its all Cooper, what about all the other games Contreras pitched for the White Sox? Why weren't the magical musings of Don Cooper working then?

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 03:08 PM) DA, that's some borderline elrockin' s*** right there. I'm disappointed in you. You said he started 3 series so there is no way anything Greg Walker has done that could top that. His prized project was a bigger reason for the title and you know it.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 03:35 PM) I was thinkin' Damaso Marte. Funny thing is, DA, along with Shack, were probably the two biggest Jose supporters on the board while he was here. Now DA is doing everything in his power to discredit Contreras (to make Cooper look worse) and in turn build up the resume of his fake god Walker. I've never encountered a fan that wanted to be a martyr for a hitting coach. I'm not discrediting Contreras at all. What is funny is how trashed Jose Contreras was on this board for years, and now he's a feather in Don Cooper's cap.

When Cutler left the field after the last incompletion to Roy Williams, did he make a jester to get Williams out of the game, and then put up a 1 and a 3 for perhaps Johnny Knox?

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:40 PM) Sorry, dude. Contreras started game 1 of three consecutive playoff series after being banished by a club that had won a mega bidding war for his services (i.e. they gave up on him). That accomplishment >>>>>>>>> anything positive Walker has done. OK, we will forget the pair of first inning 3 run homers Konerko hit in the ALCS, to get the Sox going and his GS in game 2 of the WS. BTW,Contreras was the only losing pitcher for the Sox in the 2005 postseason.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:12 PM) And what is the park adjustment factor for losing 20-30 hits per season in Oakland on foul balls and balls that don't carry over the fence in night games or in April/May/September in the Bay Area? I didn't realize that Dice-K was quite that good for one year...but that only supports the notion that Cooper did a superior job with Contreras because he didn't ever come close to that level of success with the Yankees. It's the same thing with those Cooper critics blaming him for Jake Peavy this season. If he was the same Peavy who had a devastating slider, 95 MPH fastball, pitched half his games in PETCO and against mostly lousy offenses in the NL West AND WAS 100% HEALTHY, then you would have the right to criticize Cooper for Jake's 2011 season. So, once again...if we do a poll question, will you have any doubt that more would agree that Cooper helped Jose significantly more in 2005 than Greg Walker helped Jermaine Dye? I agree with what the results would be but that's not based on reality. Contreras had a little success with the Yankees in 2003. In fact, one of his most impressive performances was against the Sox, and of the 4 organizations he has pitched for, his highest ERA is with the Sox. He wasn't so great with the Sox for a while and I believe, as do others, El Duque had a lot to do with his White Sox success, but as is par for the course, any pitcher with success is because of Don Cooper. Any pitcher who isn't successful with the Sox is because either they weren't good or ballpark factors. Any hitter who struggles with the Sox is because Greg Walker is an idiot. Any hitter who is successful with the Sox is because they are just a good hitter. Walker has zero to do with it. We will see if the same line of thinking sticks with the new hitting coach.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 01:50 PM) 1) Ozzie's being brought to South Florida as much as a PR move...to be the new "face of the franchise" and help to sell tickets to the Hispanic population of South Florida...nobody would accuse the Yankees of hiring or wanting to hire Cooper having anything to do with selling tickets or bringing back to his roots, etc. 2) Jermaine Dye had a much longer track record of success with the Braves, Royals and A's. It's not inconsistent to say Cooper would get MORE credit for Dice K. Dice K hasn't even had one completely successful year with the Red Sox compared to expectations. In fact, no Japanese pitcher in history has had sustained success over more than a 2-3 year period as a starter. Hideo Nomo is the benchmark there. You will turn around and compare him to Contreras, but I'd still guess MORE fans of the Sox would give Cooper credit for turning around Jose than Greg Walker turning around Jermaine Dye in 2005. That's not to mention the fact that a pitching injury like Dice-K has/had is usually a career-killer, whereas NUMEROUS players (especially power hitters and not slappy speed guys have recovered from broken legs). Should we have a poll question about it? 3) Mazzone and Cox were also something of a package deal, like Guillen/Walker. I hardly doubt Mazzone at his age is hurting for money or desperate for a job. JD had a 100 pt higher OPS with the Sox than with OAK. Dice K was 18-3 with a 2.90 ERA in 2008. If that's not successful, then how many White Sox pitchers have been successful under Cooper? Mazzone's last job wasn't with Cox and according to the articles isn't exactly voluntarily retired.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 01:03 PM) Is he actually looking for a job as a pitching coach? He was last winter http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/...pitching-coach/ And when he was fired http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3060643 If he's the reason guys shave 0.62 off their ERA its puzzling he's still looking for work. I think the study may be a little off.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 12:32 PM) Mazzone agreed to join the Orioles staff because he and Sam Perlozzo were best friends. He obviously struggled to get the young Orioles arms to succeed in the vaunted AL East. That certainly doesn't diminish the staffs he presided over in Atlanta for so many years. As I said if you really want to be known as a great pitching coach, you are going to need great pitchers. Mazzone was as highly thought of as any coach in baseball. His last 14 years in Atlanta the Braves led the league in ERA 12 times. Even Don Cooper can't say that.Now he can't find a job. He wanted the Yankee job, but Rothschild was more impressive to the Yankees. Amazing how that works. You're a genius when you have Maddux and Glavine and Smoltz, but an idiot when you have Baltimore's staff. BTW, it didn't hurt the Orioles offered him a big bump in salary.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 09:54 AM) What were they at the time of the Jackson trade? I would guess they were somewhere between 4th and 6th. Why would you expect the pitching to do so much better than the hitters? Are you suddenly expecting the same results as the Padres, Mariners, Tigers and Giants get because of their pitch-friendly outfields? Your facile comparison of ERA isn't adjusting AT ALL for the park they play 81 of their home games in. Why were we 10th or 11th in the American League for most of this season in scoring runs, the number that is much more relevant than batting average (sorry Greg and Juan Pierre). Why don't we hit well in one of the easiest parks to hit a home run in? Why have we been far below average at home compared to the rest of the AL from 2009-2011? How many runs have been charged to the pitching staff that were plays which/could should have been made by Juan Pierre or Alex Rios but weren't ruled as errors? Are you taking that into account, as well? Rios and Pierre have been atrocious in the outfield for much of this season. Now what, you're going to argue they were first in the AL in offense after the first week of the season? Rudy Jaramillo is one example. And it's not like the Cubs' offense isn't better than ours. I'll just leave you with this. You said Walker should get no credit for Jermaine Dye because he was successful earlier. On another post you said if Dice K came to the Sox and was effective you would have to give Cooper credit. Dice K has had success before. How is that consistent?

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 10:30 AM) Because Dick Allen asked for proof of people around baseball talking up Cooper. The Yankees attempting to acquire him is proof of that. They attempted to talk to him. There's no guarantee they would have signed him. They gave Rothschild $2 million for 3 years. How much better are they now? How much better is the Cubs offense under Jaramillo? What happened to Leo Mazzone and the Orioles pitching staff when he bolted Atlanta and was thought of as the premier pitching coach? What makes coaches good pitching coaches and good hitting coaches are good pitchers and good hitters.

Anytime you operate on a budget like the Sox and publicly proclaim how tight money is, like the Sox, when you give a player $56 million, it is a huge gamble. The Sox win some, like when they paid Konerko, and lose some, like Peavy and Dunn and Rios.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 08:12 AM) Why don't the New York Yankees want to interview Greg Walker to be their hitting coach? Why did the Sox deny permission to speak to Cooper if he wasn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization? Konerko and Rowand were pretty good before they ever became starters for the White Sox. Both were high draft picks. AJ Pierzynski had already been an All-Star with the Twins. Jermaine Dye was a consistent 24-30 homer guy when he was healthy. The only reason they were able to get him so cheaply was because of the broken leg and concerns about his diminished range playing the outfield every day. So, let's say we credit Walker with Lillbridge, Morel and DeAza. The counterargument....we'll name 12-15 pitchers who were basically given up for dead by their organizations and who made significant impacts for the Chicago White Sox. Konerko is the only one who has steadily improved. Quentin and Ramirez both have regressed from 2008. So have Danks and Floyd. That's yet another big reason we're nowhere close to first place, all the other blatant weaknesses nothwithstanding. Do you really believe that trading Hudson had more to do with Cooper than KW? Using the same logic, Cooper was a miracle worker to get what he got out of Brandon McCarthy...preventing him from fallling apart physically until we could make the trade for the more durable Danks. The Beckham situation might be 100% on Gordon, for all we know. We do know that what they're doing simply isn't working or Gordon isn't listening or capable of taking what they're practicing and applying it consistently in game situations. If there are enough players in that category, usually the coach is changed before you trade or give away $75-100 million worth of investment. Maybe the majority of this team has tuned out KW, Ozzie, the entire coaching staff, who knows? At this point, I'll give up Cooper or Buehrle if it means Guillen, Walker and KW are all gone, too. Really, nobody can be blamed or praised for anything because coaches are just facilitators and not responsible for the performance on the field...until it becomes easier to fire them than to replace the entire roster. First off the New York Yankees weren't looking for a hitting coach. Secondly, the Yankees hired Larry Rothschild, so he must be the second greatest pitching coach in history. I have no idea what role Cooper played with the Hudson trade. I do know they said that Cooper had been dying to work with Jackson, and Jackson was pretty good with the Sox, however, you were saying Morel was struggling and if Walker had the answers, why did it take so long? I just countered with Hudson, because he wasn't very impressive before he was traded and suddenly became unhittable, and even had some comments about how they do things differently in AZ. Your posts are just the typical Don Cooper is responsible for all great things by pitchers, and anything that goes wrong is clearly not his problem vs. Greg Walker is at fault if anything goes wrong with the hitters but if they are doing well its because at one time they were highly touted or have had success elsewhere. Its been argued too much. The bottom line is they are and always have been looked at differently. Its amazing the Sox are 9th in the AL in ERA. That's not WS material. The good news is Walker is out and next year we will see a new hitting coach and the White Sox offense will take off just like the Cubs offense did when they brought in the HOF hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo.

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:29 AM) Good point regarding Coop not getting scrutinized as closely as Walker. IIRC Peavy's injury was partially blamed by not warming up properly, why isn't that blamed on Cooper? If it was a hitter not taking BP, Walker would be run out of town. So maybe a complete cleaning house is in order. Let the next manager bring in a completely new staff. For the record, I'm not blaming Cooper for Peavy's injury, but I clearly remember the game when that lat detached. That particular day, he maybe threw 15 pitches in the bullpen before the game. My friend and I were astonished. I don't know if it was because he was in pain and knew something was wrong or what. I also don't know if the lat was partially detatched at the time or it became detatched all at once. But the night Peavy called it a season in 2010, he wasn't in the bullpen more than 2 or 3 minutes before the game.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 09:43 PM) Konerko, Thome (Hall of Fame track before he arrived), AJP (had put up OPS numbers elsewhere than he has in a "hitter's park", Dye (what did Walker do to fix him besides KW simply signing a talented guy who was injured?), CLee (really?), Magglio (double really?), Crede (maybe), Iguchi (he was already an established veteran in Japan, unless you can find some direct quotes attributing his success to any work with Walker), Everett (he was a much better hitter with other teams before he came to Chicago), Ramirez (once again...based on reputation/expectations, but he has regressed since his rookie year and claiming Ramirez is a lot like criticizing Walker now because Viciedo hasn't hit for any power in 2011), Rowand (including Crede and Rowand is a lot like listing Danks-Floyd-Quentin-Ramirez in the KW curriculum vitae while conveniently skipping everything which has happened the last 3 years as if it didn't exist)[/i] How has Alexei Ramirez improved as a hitter since 2008? He pulls nearly every ball to the left side of the infield. He can't bunt. He's not a good situational hitter, taking nearly the same approach from AB to AB and no matter what the count is. A guy with his speed and ability hitting into so many double plays? He's been the most frustrating player (after Beckham/Dunn/Rios) to watch offensively this season. He's left perhaps more important runners in key situations in scoring position than any Sox hitter not in the aforementioned AXIS OF EVIL. As far as credit goes, Walker deserves SOME for Morel. But you can just as easily argue that he didn't get Brent to take the approach he's currently using when the games actually mattered or counted. If you look at his career history, he's always adjusted and improved at every level in the 2nd half of each season, albeit much more quickly than he did this year (obviously, the majors is the biggest jump). That seems more to do with Morel as a baseball player and his baseball IQ than anything to do with Walker per se. Your bolded part just proves that Walker could only be average in your mind if everyone is succesful. Konerko gives him credit for fixing him. So did Rowand. AJP was pretty damn good. If Jermanine Dye was a 40 homer guy, the Sox probably wouldn't have been able to sign him for $5 million. Ramirez has been a lot better than projected. The one confirmed scout that was on here when he signed said he was Omar Infante with less power. You are just proving that if guys hit, its because they hit before. If they don't hit, its because of Walker, which is totally opposite of how pitching is viewed. Has Floyd regressed from 2008? And maybe his 2008 was just growing up as is ERA with the Sox in 2007 was over 5.00. Danks wasn't so hot this year. Javy Vazquez sucked 2 of the 3 years he was here, then went to Atlanta and was awesome. Wasn't Contreras a star in Cuba? Using your Morel argument, why didn't Cooper get what AZ got out of Hudson right away and save the Sox some money? Hudson was pretty good with them right away. Every little bit of success a pitcher has with the Sox is credited to Cooper. For hitters, they have a minor league history of getting better, they have had success elsewhere, its just guys adjusting to the major leagues, it has nothing to do with Walker. Fine. I would just like you to be consistent. That's all I've ever asked. If you can give Morel all the credit for adjusting, shouldn't you be giving Beckham all the blame for not? If guys hit elsewhere before so Walker gets no credit if they do well here, then when they get out of slumps or figure stuff out is on them. Correct? So really Dunn and Rios have had success elsewhere, Rios even had success here for a little while. It therefore can't be on Walker they can't hit now. He doesn't get credit for keeping others hitting or snapping out of slumps every player goes through, he shouldn't be blamed if they can't snap out of it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 09:46 PM) If anything, that would argue the minor league coaches helped the most to build his success and when he eventually failed and the league adjusted to him, Walker didn't have any answers until halfway through 2010 and none this year. By the way, DET really seemed to go on a tear when their "beloved" pitching coach was fired mid-season. It doesn't always help as a rule, but quite a few times it does. How much did it help Detroit's pitching? I would think acquiring Fister was probably the best tonic. Porcello, Penny, Scherzer, haven't had dramatic improvement. Verlander is Verlander, I don't think he became any better. Detroit can hit, I don't know what that has to do with the pitching coach.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) Not following. I think you just contradicted your argument... Why is it a contradiction? Just because a guy is hitting well in AAA, doesn't mean it rolls over to the major leagues. There are a lot of people that hit well in the minors that couldn't hit in the majors. He's hit well in the minors before, it didn't translate. All of Cooper's projects have done well in the minor leagues. The fact is you have to do well in the minor leagues to be called up to the majors. Its funny how it works. If Brent Morel's Sept is not a mirage, he just figured it out on his own. If Gavin Floyd's 2008 wasn't a mirage, its because Don Cooper fixed him. If Phil Humber pitches like the 4th or 5th starter he didn't pitch for elsewhere, Don Cooper made it happen. If Alejandro De Aza consistently hits .320 this season, Greg Walker did nothing, he was going to do that, he figured it out on his own or some minor league hitting coach got through to him. It can't be Walker, a caller into Rongey says he sucks, some posters on Soxtalk says he sucks, and Dan Berstein says he sucks. Therefore, he sucks. If Konerko loves him and Rowand loves him, those guys know nothing. Listen to the talk shows. That's where real baseball is spoken.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 08:20 PM) He hit .302 with the Knights in a full year in 2010 (.366 OBP, .800 OPS), and was hitting .322 (.378/.871) in 2011. He was tearing the cover off the ball. Morel did well in AAA, Beckham did well in AAA, so if it automatically just rolls over...................................please explain.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 07:38 PM) No he simply did not. He got hurt. That's why they waived him? Get real. I'll say the same about Humber.