Dick Allen

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 05:38 PM) Way to change the goalposts there. Didn't change any goalposts. Greg Walker is a fine hitting coach. No one has left and become the HOFer a lot of people believe every hitter on the Sox should be. He has had a lot of success with others. You choose to look the other way because he yelled at your boy. That's fine. Walker will be gone. I just hope KW is smart enough to know that they isn't going to automatically make guys who haven't hit start to hit. You're slurping Cooper about Humber. Its only fair then to give Walker credit for De Aza, a guy that failed elsewhere. I don't know how much Walker has to do with his success. I'm being honest. You just assume Cooper has EVERYTHING to do with Humber's. I find that funny. If you're giving the pitching coach credit for any pitcher who does better than expected, it is reasonable to give the hitting coach the same recognition.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 05:30 PM) It's usually indirect. The last one was KW and that's the one that matters most. And what did KW say? He didn't say anything about Walker just about Beckham. KW and Walker argued because Walker is old school and didn't think KW mentioning things like that about Beckham in the press was the cool thing to do. KW acted like the child he is and told Walker to go home, just like he told Ozzie to go home last year. He's 0-2.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 04:48 PM) If he was really that good, why did no one else get it out of him until now? What really are you getting out of him? He's 4th or 5th starter material, like Bruce Chen. Occassionally they will throw decently for a season. You are absolutely postive the only reason Humber is having any success is Don Cooper. What has Cooper done to make him better? Name me the most prominent baseball person who has said anything negative about the job Walker does? Walker yelled at Kenny so you don't like him. It wasn't long ago you used to have smart ass comments for anyone that said anything negative about Ozzie, but Kenny doesn't like Ozzie anymore, so neither do you. Walker is far better than most give him credit. That is the bottom line. You can say he sucks all you want, but Konerko, Thome, AJP, Dye, CLee, Magglio, Crede, Iguchi, Everett, Ramirez, Rowand show otherwise, and we are still waiting for a bust with the Sox to become a star some place else, because face it, there has to be a Don Cooper of hitting out there somewhere, and if you read this board regularly you will know once Walker leaves, so does any problem with the offense.

I actually heard something today that boggled my mind. Ozzie and Rios for Logan Morrison. If KW could make that trade, he would deserve an extension.

I remember in the late 80s Michael McCaskey had a gem about his goal was to have the Bears always be good enough, maybe not good enough to win it all, just good enough to keep it interesting. It appears, and it shocks me, KW is turning into Michael McCaskey without the Harvard education, and please no one mention KW's Stanford "education". He spent one semester there on a football scholarship. Calling him Stanford educated or a Stanford grad is worse than calling Allen Iverson a Georgetown grad. If the Sox lose another game this season, they will finish 3 of the last 5 seasons under .500, but they spent some time in first place so I guess everything is OK.

Maybe they could work that quote into next year's ad campaign, Hey we were in 1st place after opening day. KW has gone from making the playoffs isn't good enough, you must win, to spending time in first place at some point in the season is sign he's a success. This team needs to re-boot.

He failed to mention all the time they spent in 2nd and 3rd place in perhaps, at least for the past 10 years, the worst division in baseball.

Saying he should be patted on the back for having a team that has spent time in first place but finished 3rd is garbage. KW needs to go.

QUOTE (SpainSOXfan09 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 01:08 AM) New article up by Van Dyke, sorted of related but the quote at the bottom really killed me by KW. Says he doesn't really see a reason to change the direction of the ship with regards to Ozzie. Oh boy!! 2012 here we come with more drama!! Link: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/break...0,2605712.story White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said he was tired of talking about his job status every day – even though he did again as the last homestand opened Friday – and general manager Kenny Williams apparently agrees. “I’m just listening right now,” Williams said when asked what was happening with Guillen. “We have one week to go in the season and we’ll get to all of that soon enough. No need to rush it.” Asked if he, Guillen and chairman Jerry Reinsdorf would sit down soon, Williams said: “I would rather do it privately. Whether or not we have plans to sit down or when, how, what the ultimate result is going to be is dangerous (speculation). And it’s unnecessary. I know it hasn’t been exactly private, but I think it’s better served if it is. “That it’s a more respectful way of doing business.” Guillen is signed through next season, but is seeking an extension. It is possible Reinsdorf will tell Guillen he isn’t getting one and he either manages that last year or quits and goes to Florida. Williams still has great influence with Reinsdorf and, in fact, recommended the coaching staff get contract extensions after a disastrous 2007 season. “I’m not one that easily will give up the ship and change course of direction,” Williams said. “I’m in the listening phase right now and that’s all I can do. We’ll see where we end up as a result. Ozzie’s got some ideas that I think he’s still developing. We’ll see.” A couple of days ago, KW said it wasn't his call. KW and OG are both speaking out of both sides of their mouths. I also believe they both know exactly what is up regarding this offseason and it seems pretty obvious the Sox don't want to pay Ozzie if he's not managing the White Sox. So they probably are going to try to make it hard for him to come back for his final year of his contract by waxing some of his friends and saying no to any extension talk. It will be up to Ozzie. The Marlins aren't going to negotiate with the White Sox over Ozzie if there is nothing to negotiate Ozzie has to quit first. If he doesn't, JR either has to bring him back or fire him. At this point I'm guessing they are praying to JR's God and the real God he quits. (That's just in reference to Ozzie's quote. I really don't think he meant anything by it fwiw)

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 02:33 AM) Again, using De Aza to defend Walker is a joke. And no one's laughing. Or everyone is. It's a terrible argument, is my point. He's kept it going which he didn't in FL which got him waived. If he was hitting .220 it would be on Walker. Personally, I don't know how much of De Aza's success is because of Walker, just like I don't think Humber would have a 7.00 ERA if he were a White Sox and Nardi Contreras was the pitching coach. He is a little further removed from surgery and added a pitch before he came to the Sox, and its not like he's a Cy Young candidate. Weren't we also told the Sox, and I'm assuming Cooper but could be wrong, recognized a simple fix with Zach Stewart as one of the reasons they got him? But as long as the reason any White Sox pitcher has success that he didn't have with another team is soley because of the pitching coach, its only fair Greg Walker gets a feather in his cap if the same thing occurs with a hitter. The problem is most White Sox fans brains are programmed into believing pitchers without Don Cooper would never have an ERA under 5.50 or a WHIP under 2.00 and hitters away from Greg Walker hit at least .300 with an .850 OPS. I just have a hard time believing its Greg Walker's fault when Gordon Beckham swings at a pitch over his head. Everyone who thinks it is probably has blamed someone else for all their shortcomings. The Sox pitching staff is now tied for 9th in team ERA in the AL. And if you think what I post is a joke, is it really anymore of a joke than the people who post the reason why the Sox were slow to call up Viciedo is they are afraid Walker will get to him or say Walker will ruin everyone? Its his final week, and he's done a lot better job than most realize.

The only way to get rid of them is to take on an equally bad or even worse contract.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 07:05 PM) There have been way more than Floyd and Humber. Humber may have been a #3 pick, but how many pitching coaches failed to get him to do anything at all? He is 28 now, not 18 or 22. That is the whole point. Other than Humber, Cooper never has had a #3 pick. Humber only bolsters the argument for the job that Cooper has done because of his previous history of being mediocre to awful. I'm glad you think Humber is headed to the HOF, but he was a top prospect who had elbow surgery. He was the prize for Johan Santana. We'll see how he does next season, he was a lot better than most believed he would be this year. Floyd was a #4 pick I believe.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 03:50 PM) I'm thinking we should also be proactive and lock up Peavy to a 3 year, 45 million dollar extension. If he can pitch like the grinder he is next year, the former Cy Young Winner will get more money on the open market. Can you imagine how much money a team like the Marlins would pay Peavy? He'd be a great mentor for their young pitchers, as well as a terrific piece for them to have when they make the postseason. They should also think about extending Dunn. Now would be the time. You would probably get a good bargain if you tacked on a couple more years.

QUOTE (sin city sox fan @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) I don't think the White Sox can afford to lose our leader and Ozzie must be signed to a long term contract (6-8 years minimum) immediately. Let's hope talk of a new contract is going on behind the scenes and something is announced this week. Come on JR......make the first step today towards bringing the World Series back to the southside. Secure Ozzie as our manager longterm and keep our greatest asset. Fire KW, kick Ozzie up to the GM seat, and maybe throw a President title his way as gratitude for 2005. Name Joey Cora the new manager, and let Oney become the bench coach.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 07:56 AM) By your own standards you disqualified everyone you submitted, so you are back to nothing. Top picks and prospects don't count right? So the four guys who you mention are all out. Walker has nothing. That leaves Cooper way ahead. They count, but you're argument is Gordon Beckham. When you pop off about Gavin Floyd, look what Cooper "did" with Floyd when he was 24, and then try again. I'm just mirroring your argument, you asked me for names, I gave you names. I asked you for top 3 in the draft position players KW has picked up, and you have no response. You go on and on about Humber and ask about a waiver wire claimed hitter that has done anything. I give you De Aza.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 09:50 PM) Milkman, Kitekrazy hit the nail on the head, people have been saying its common sense that Greg Walker will be gone for longer than I can remember. So to act as if its a "done deal" is just ignoring all historical evidence. I personally believe that Walker will not be back, but I wouldnt be so bold to guarantee it. DA, Another argument is how many Sox hitters went on to other teams to drastically improve under another hitting coach? I just dont think the Sox have had a lot of offensive players who have been complete hitters. And how many went to other teams and really improved? One I can think of, that was Swisher, who didn't work with Walker, but I suppose we can blame Walker in a Ms. Cleo sort of way. Rowand had a big second year in Philadelphia, but guess who he worked with the winter before that year, and that year was very similar to his 2004? I also agree that Walker being gone is a foregone conclusion, but if anyone thinks that will cure their offensive woes, they are going to be dissappointed.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 08:43 PM) But shouldn't Tim Laker be more credited with DeAza's success than Walker? He worked with him in Charlotte (correct me if I'm wrong) for parts of two seasons...there's no way you could argue Alejandro has had more exposure to Walker than Laker. Contreras got hurt and got old. Not sure how to blame Cooper for that one. His career in NY was to the point where they had to subsidize a large part of his Sox salary. I would think if Cooper had someone like Dice-K Matsuzaka to work with next season and he won the Cy Young (just throwing out a hypothetical) that Cooper would deserve a ton of credit, yes? I also don't think it's especially fair to criticize Don Cooper for Jake Peavy this season...the guy's coming off a once-in-a-lifetime injury that's never been surgically-repaired (for a pitcher) in history. So who's to say that Jake and Cooper aren't absolutely maxxing out the best he can give? It's easy to say look at his 2007 stats in PETCO in a weaker hitting division (outside of the Dodgers) when he had a 95 MPH fastball and devastating slider. He doesn't have anything out there...for about 50-60% of his starts this season, just pitching on competitiveness and guile. This is the problem, There's always a reason not to blame Cooper when a player's performance isn't up to par, but Soxtalk and every other message board and talk radio callers all blame Walker when the offense isn't there. Rudy Jaramillo was the greatest hitting coach of all time. The Cubs are 14th in the NL with RISP. Does Rudy have a bad plan, or does Rudy have bad hitters? As for Contreras, no one was a bigger fan than me on this site, but to give Cooper all the credit for his success is pretty shortsided, and if you do, you must give him blame when the performance slips. Personally, I think El Duque was the reason he became unhittable as El Duque begged him to pitch like he pitched in Cuba, he had changed his style. He switched and became an ace. Face it, at the trade deadline in 2005 he wasn't so great, the consensus on this board was to trade him for AJ Burnett. Thank God that didn't happen. One interesting thing about Contreras is when he became a free agent after the Sox traded him to Colorado, he stated wherever he went he wanted to take the Colorado pitching coach with him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) So you have nothing. Kiss your analogy good-bye. I just showed you a lot. Again, name one top 3 draft pick position player KW picked up on waivers? You are making Humber out to be God. He's been good, but he's 9-9 with an ERA near 4.00 which would probably be higher if he wasn't hit on the head and sat down a couple of weeks. De Aza was a waiver claim, as I mentioned and he's hitting .326. The person who has nothing is you. Kiss your analogy good bye.

QUOTE (MAX @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 08:12 PM) I hadn't noticed but I'm willing to bet that this is going to drive me crazy now. At first I thought is was my computer which goes into some sort of sleep mode when you haven't been on it for a few minutes. But it is annoying, unbelievably annoying when its beeping and it isn't White Sox crossing the plate.

I hate the little bell that goes off now when a run is scored on CSN.

I'm very confident, all finances being equal, the ladies would find me a better looking guy than Asdrubal.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:38 PM) And the most that could be named for Walker are about four guys, despite his getting more guys to work with than Cooper ever year. Guys that were quit on by major league baseball. Top pick or not, these are guys no one did anything with. Again, who is the minor league signing that Walker has turned into an everyday player? Who is the waiver pick up that walker turned into an every day player? Who is the 25 man roster casualty that Walker fixed? Cooper has a track record, which is why teams want him. Walker has pretty much done nothing compared to cooper. Hell if you want to discount for being top picks, PK was a first round pick, CQ was a first round pick, Rowand was a second round pick, and Uribe was a big time bonus baby out of Latin America. Who is the top 3 pick position player that KW signed to a minor league contract? De Aza was a waiver claim, he's hitting .320 Again, you wanted examples, I gave you similar examples. Caufield said Quentin was great but regressed, I pointed out most of Cooper's projects also regressed. Facts are facts. Walker is a lot better than the average Sox fan thinks. You remember every hitting failure, but forget every pitching failure. I really don't want Cooper fired. I think he's fine. I just would like this board to treat him the same way Greg Walker gets treated. Maybe you will see how silly you are after a while.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:23 PM) Top 4 picks that no one else could fix. So where are Greg Walker's success stories? Joe Borcahrd? Josh Fields? The closest thing he has is Paul Konerko, who already had put up a .300 ba, a 30 HR season, and a 100 RBI season before Walker ever took over. Who does Walker get credit for to make this analogy work? No one was able to fix those guys. If they had success elsewhere, I could see where you could say Walker was lacking. But that's not the case. Its like teaching an English class and having Ozzie Guillen for a student. If you go by the finish product, its not necessarily a reflection on the teacher. But you're right, if Humber pitches well, Cooper taught him everything he knows. If he gives up 4 to a AAA Cleveland team, its because he's just not good. But if the Sox get shut down by Bruce Chen, the guy having a better year than Floyd and Danks, its because Greg Walker has no plan.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:29 PM) Konerko had the one bad year when Walker took over. As I said in teh other thread, PK had already had a .300 season, a 30 homer season, and a 100 RBi season at that point. Rowand's best season was in Philly, right before FA. Uribe had the great year his first year here, and then desended by over .200 OPS before rebounding in SF. You wanted his Loaisa. Didn't Loaisa fall apart or am I mistaken?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 07:24 PM) But that's only maybe 3 names. If someone wants to claim Morel or Lillibridge as great successes...you're welcome to assert that. We haven't even mentioned the likes of Matt Thornton, Jose Contreras, Jon Garland, Jenks, etc. Quentin was one of the DBacks' top prospects at one point. He wasn't to the level of a D'Angelo Jimenez or Julio Ramirez who was simply another busted prospect. And the thing is Walker couldn't take credit for building on that success or Quentin improving he staying at a level comparable to 2008. He regressed. Weren't Humber, Floyd, Thornton, Jenks and Garland top prospects at one point? The Yankees gave Contreras $32 million, he had to be pretty good, considering Alexei got $4 million and now everyone is saying he is hitting exactly what was projected. Floyd has regressed since 2008, Jenks regressed, Garland regressed, Loaisa regressed, Contreras regressed, what's the point? Thornton is Cooper's masterpiece, without a doubt. The one guy he fixed who actually stayed fixed.