Dick Allen

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 06:15 PM) When you buy $5000 worth of stock that you realize is going into the toilet and probably won't recover, do you: a) try to get rid of it as fast as possible, to cut your losses b) hold onto the stock while it plummets closer and closer to $0 because you're waiting for a "return on your investment" If you have hung on too long, it does get to the point you might as well keep it, but the Sox have other options. If it were only a guy like Jordan Danks or De Aza, sure you keep Pierre around, but the team is offensively challenged and Viciedo can rake. The other argument Ranger had was it was one hitter, and one hitter wouldn't make that much difference. I think Ranger is smarter than this, but disagreeing with the way the White Sox are handling things probably wouldn't be a good career move for him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 06:48 PM) I can't tell you how many times I have seen people ride out stupid trades and turn them into margin calls, or worse. Or in the futures business if someone is on call and has one trade making money and one losing money, if they have to liquidate one, most of the time the amateurs unload the good trade because they don't want to admit they were wrong. Usually they will wind up having to liquidate the other trade as it keeps going against them. Which is exactly what Ranger is suggesting the Sox are doing with Pierre, although I don't know if that's exactly true. I really believe at least Ozzie feels Juan has something left. I don't buy it has anything to do with the money owed. I was listening to Ranger and the callers on my way to see my dad yesterday and no one mentioned to Ranger that the Sox are paying Viciedo, also gave him a $5 million bonus, don't they want a return on that investment?

Humber has been amazing.

As dumb as KW was claiming Rios, Reagins was a million times dumber trading for Vernon Wells and ridding Toronto of about $80 million in salary responsibilty. Rios is an All Star compared to Wells.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:40 PM) Remember, they're making money from you at each of those steps. Even if you just go to a couple games a year and watch others. Minimal from watching on TV compared with going to a game especially considering my days as a Neilson family are ova.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:35 PM) And yet, AAccording to Forbes the white sox took home $25 million in profit last year. Then, when they went all in, they conveniently raised salary by exactly the amount Forbes said they earned in profit last year. What did they do with the profit Forbes said they made previous seasons?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:30 PM) The other problem is you're losing those potential generations of future fans...going to baseball games is a habit, the shared memories of going with your father or grandfather to the game. Once you lose a loyal customer after so many years, it's 10X harder to get them back in the fold. If you give up your tickets...a lot of people are finding new hobbies and interests, or they're simply just trying to survive financially. Just not as much time for sports/entertainment spending. That's a good point. The article I read about the Knicks was exactly about that. A lot of those people know just about everyone in their section because they have all had tickets for so long. I would venture to guess someone who goes to 50 baseball games a year then gives up their tickets because of cost probably finds something else to do with their time, and finds going to 4 or 5 games a year satisfying. We have full season tickets but probably go to less than half the games now. It used to be at least 65-70. With HDTV, slow zones on the red line, $7.25 beers plus tip, sometimes its nice to get the grill going, a case of beer and have my buddy come over or I go over to his place and imitate Hawk all game long. Our wives are always amazed we say what Hawk will say just before he says it.

QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:29 PM) If you can sell something for more, you do it. Or did capitalism end? I'm a season ticketholder so I get a lot of letters from the White Sox. When they raise ticket prices, according to them its not about trying to squeeze more out of me or maximizing their profit, its about trying to cover their costs. If you noticed, there have been a lot of empty seats at USCF this year, and attendance has dropped every year since 2006 or 2007.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:26 PM) Why does it matter if long term seat holders cancel their rivets if they have replacements for most? That's a huge revenue increase. Did the Knicks just have a few thousand people call and say they were willing to pay $700 a seat to watch them next year? They did it because they thought many of the people who have been around for 30 years won't cancel no matter what. Ask the Yankees how the ridiculous pricing worked when they moved into their new park. They lowered the prices the next season. After they won the WS.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) The owners would say they broke even even if they pulled in $90 million a year. If the ballpark is sold out for some fraction of my games, then ticket prices for those games aren't high enough. Supply and demand. MLB is also doing a stellar job of developing new revenue streams, like the extra innings package I'm watching. Then they have no reason to raise ticket prices every year. We will agree to disagree because I think guys like Alex Rios, even if he were halfway decent, making $12 million a year, is silly. Seriously, $12 million is a lot of money.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:18 PM) The Knicks are screwing ticketholders because there is demand for those tickets Comparing this to wall street is just nuts. No one is using baseball tickets to hide losses or betting 100x on the future price of tickets. Many of the people they sent invoices to are cancelling, some have had their seats over 30 years. Salaries cannot continue to go up if you expect the paying customers to foot the bill. I don't think televison ratings have been particularly stellar with Fox. Rios with a homer.

QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:09 PM) Owners are businessmen. Why would they charge less just because they have lower fixed costs? They would just make even greater profits. EDIT: yeah, what Balta said. Because they wouldn't be able to justify it to their customers so their customers wouldn't pay the price. Its one thing to say to your fanbase, we raised payroll $25 million so we need to raise ticket prices. It wouldn't go over too well with the customers to clear $80 million in ticket sales alone and have a payroll of $30 million. Its probably the biggest reason JR has had his lackies say the Sox break even every year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:07 PM) No they won't. Revenue is going up every year. That's what matters. Just like the stock market went up every year and real estate value went up every year. Eventually the bubble will burst. Just around me, there are a lot more people talking about dumping their tickets not just because the Sox haven't been very good, but because justifying the cost is getting harder and harder. There was an article yesterday or Thursday about brokers stuck with Cubs tickets. Winning is always at least a temporary cure, but I think its starting to get close to the point teams have to start freezing prices. The Yankees had to lower them after they priced some ridiculously. The Knicks are screwing some long time ticketholders by upping their costs over 100 percent.

QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 09:00 PM) The owners would charge the same amount regardless of how much the players make. If the average payroll was $30-40 million, it wouldn't cost as much to go to a game. They charge what they think they can get away with. Beers wouldn't be $7.25. People stopped filling the bleachers at Wrigley so the Cubs started dropping prices for beer and hot dogs.

QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 08:57 PM) Should the owners just pocket even more money? Because in the end it comes down to players or owners making that extra money. No. It probably shouldn't cost someone $200-300 to take their family to a game, but people have been willing to pay it, although I believe the tide is turning.

Baseball salaries are ridiculous. Alex Rios will be paid more this year than Carlton Fisk made his entire 24 year career.

Clarence Clemons RIP.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:50 PM) By 4 years from now? I'd expect that'd be pretty much standard for an all-star player, if that's what DV is. Like I said...it's whether you're "all in" this year or not. if we're actually All In, then what the manager wants shouldn't be stopping the team from making moves that win games. If we're instead all in on Ozzie Guillen, then give Ozzie the rope to hang himself and save Viciedo for a couple years from now when the rebuilding process is nearly finished. So you're saying the rebuilding process would only take a couple of years?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:34 PM) When did I ever say that KW & Ozzie should keep their job because of 2005? When did I ever say that they have done a good job in the past few years? Never. I agree with everything you say in this post. I just disagree with you playing the "what if" game with 2005, acting like they never should have won because of one or two random lucky plays. That was a good team that was more than deserving to win the WS. KW made some great moves and Oz put his team in a position to win. That was then, & this is now, and their jobs are rightfully in question because of the team's recent performance. Their recent struggles shouldn't change the perception of what that team did in 2005 though. When did I say they never should have won? I just pointed out the fine line between winning and losing. Was Bob Brenly a genius because the DBacks got to Mariano Rivera? Was John Hart not as good of a GM because Jose Mesa wet his pants? The thing is the only real argument anyone has as to what kind of a job KW and Ozzie do except for mediocre, is 2005. If that year didn't happen or they did lose in the playoffs, 99% of White Sox fans would want them gone right now. I still maintain the playoffs are a crapshoot. Get in them, hopefully with some season to spare so you can align your rotation, and give yourself a chance. Both have huge egos and believe they are the reason the Sox won that year. I pointed this out years ago, but I used to go to Soxfest and go to the talks. When KW and Ozzie shared a stage it was hysterical when fans would go up to the microphone and thank one for the WS title. The other became so uncomfortable it almost seemed like they wanted to scream, "what about me?".

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:33 PM) If you buy him another year pre-arbitration year, then that pushes back his big payday by a full year, gets you another year at that $2.5 million, keeps him here for an extra year, and pushes back each arb year. Basically, here's your question. If you want the White Sox to totally rebuild and look maybe 3+ years down the road, then you want Viciedo in Charlotte until rosters expand so that he makes that Super 2 deadline, because it makes the Sox roster cheaper and better in 3 years. That money and arb-status will actually be big then, even if it looks small now. If you want the Sox to go all in this year to try to save Ozzie Guillen's job, then you want Viciedo up and playing every day right now. Exactly how many guys get $10 million their first year of arbitration? The Sox still get the same amount of years of control with Viciedo, its a question of one of those years being arb eligible vs. not being eligible. Its either 3 or 4. Ozzie isn't going anywhere. You know it, I know it, we all know it. The object is to try to win. They are only 5.5 out with 90 to play. As I stated before, if Ozzie wants to play with his toys too much for KW's liking, its time the GM take those toys away and make him play with better toys. If, and I think you're a little off, the extra arb year is going to be $10 million more expensive for the White Sox, then Viciedo is going to be an MVP quality performer and some wins, maybe some playoff games, will all offset that finanicial number over the next couple of years.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:59 PM) You do remember what the Sox looked like after the White Flag trade right? Prospects don't matter to the general Sox fan. They don't care about next year if there is a 75 win team on the field. For the Sox the difference between 75 and 85 win expectations are HUGE historically. Exactly, White Sox fans and prospects don't mix well. Beckham is a prospect, but everyone wants instant gratification or they say he's garbage, he'll never be anything. Robin Ventura is loved around here. I wonder what Soxtalk would have thought of him his rookie year. He was pretty brutal. As much as many want to embrace it, if a rebuild ever happens, many clamouring for it now will be miserable. You do need to have something in the minor leagues because guys aren't going to perform or get hurt, but there certainly is no guarantee if you decide to totally rebuild your team that it will not be a very long process and may never get done. Pittsburgh and KC and Baltimore were once crown jewel franchises.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:13 PM) ? It might well save $10-15 million if he's as good as we hope he is. Not really. He's signed next year for $2.5 million. Its the only difference is one year the Sox can renew or they given him arb. Its probably a $2 million difference considering he's going to be eligible for arb anyway eventually. His contract stated that in 2012 if he was eligible for arbitration the $2.5 million became a $3.5 million team option. And if he's as good as we hope, he will help the team win this year and make more than enough money to cover the difference. And if you're baseball decisions are based on arbitration a year or two from now, you should look for a job with the Pirates.

On the flipside, the Sox are paying Viciedo $1.25 million to play in Charlotte. It would seem silly they would pay him to not play in Chicago in hopes it will save them money in a couple of years.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:17 PM) They didn't score a run, but they also had the lead so they didn't need to. Maybe if they were trailing, they would have been more agressive and they would have scored more runs. How do you know they wouldn't? What if? But KW did keep him on the roster and Ozzie trusted him in that situation and he came through. He didn't pitch well during the season as a starter, but in a couple relief appearances he was scoreless, just like in Game 3. Sorry that you are disappointed the Sox won the Boston series, you obviously believe they weren't deserving. Actually, probably no one was more thrilled the correct color of Sox won that series than me. Its too bad winning a WS clouds your judgement about the job performance of KW and OG since. The team still tries to sell a championship tradition, but they still have only won one the past 94 years. Its also the only time they have won a postseason series in 94 years. All the momentum they had in turning Chicago into a White Sox town has fallen by the wayside. There used to be a waiting list for season tickets. Now season ticketholders of which I am one, can't give their tickets away. Just keep one thing in mind, if its because of Ozzie and KW the team plays well and wins a WS, its only fair its because of Ozzie and KW guys like Pierre and Rios and Dunn have totally sucked. I think its something more in the middle, but their absolute refusal to be almost halfway through a season and really not do anything about the struggles this team has had, when the ad campaign is "all in" indicates to me the shelf life on an 11 year GM and an 8 year manager should be expiring pretty soon.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 02:29 PM) If the error doesn't happen, then they are down 4-2 in the 6th inning, but the inning starts off Iguchi/Dye/PK, instead of PK/Everett/Rowand. Maybe they start a rally and the Sox win the game anyway, it would have played out a bit differently. The play was in the 5th inning, not the bottom of the 9th. El Duque was a veteran with all kinds of big game playoff experience with the Yankees who stepped up when needed. It's not unheard of for a player to step up in a position like that. Considering the Sox didn't score another run after the Iguchi homer, odds are they would have lost the game. As for El Duque, KW had to be talked into even having him on the postseason roster, and he could have pitched well and a couple of runs could have scored in that situation.