Dick Allen

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 08:35 PM) Bring on the rebuilding phase (I know it won't happen). But this is sickening. What team has really successfully re built in 4 or 5 years in the past 15 years?

I just can't see Manny finishing the season actually playing everyday. There's no point putting him on the DL because of the expanded rosters, but I would bet all my real estate that he comes up with some injury before the end of the season.

Rosenbloom had a good one today said its not "Manny being Manny" now, its "Manny being Kotsay".

''Not really, that's part of the game,'' Ramirez said when asked about being disappointed with his showing. ''Sometimes they're going to put it at third base and you're not going to bring it in, and sometimes they're going to be on first base with two outs and you bring them in. That's part of the game.'' Not dissappointed with his performance? He's a bigger moron than I thought.

QUOTE (Real @ Sep 14, 2010 -> 11:07 PM) Does $$$ make enough sense for you? Because the Sox will not have a lot of it next year. You basically can't bring Konerko back unless you trim significant salary elsewhere. Lots of empty seats for the rest of this season, and definitely for next year. If no one is going to go to the games next year, I guess you are saying in a roundabout way the team is going to suck next year. Why bring back Konerko if the team is going to suck anyway and nobody is going to watch?

I really don't know how you could expect him to be the guy all juiced up in 2008 when he hit LA. I would have expected him to provide more than he has, which, despite what some will say is NOTHING, but he wasn't a difference maker. As Bobby V. said, it was a desperation move that wouldn't work. He was slammed here for that comment, but it was right. I really wonder if Manny is close to the most ABs he's had in his career without an extra base hit or RBI.

QUOTE (J.Reedfan8 @ Sep 14, 2010 -> 10:57 PM) I'd still rather at all cost keep the 25 year old lefty in Danks. Buehrle won't leave, but I'd rather move him than Danks. Thats how much I like Danks. Also I hope if/when the Twins finish us off in this series, I hope Ozzie plays the kids the rest of the way, instead of the whole "pride" crap. I agree. Trading Danks makes no sense at all to me.

Rios, Thornton, Manny all really sucked tonight. Will Manny have an RBI or extra base hit in a White Sox uniform by the time he decides to call it a season?

QUOTE (ktssox @ Sep 14, 2010 -> 12:26 PM) Wow. I know this is a Thome thread, but this is disgusting. So, not only does Kenny sign/embrace a cheating, me-first type of player, but he then tells the rest of the team that this player (who doesn't play the game the right way) gets treated differently because he is better than you? Nice way to run a team, Kenny. That'll be good for morale. Disgusting. KW has been more forgiving lately. Cowley, who I hate, really called him out on it and had quotes of his from last year concerning Manny. It was the polar opposite as to what he was saying now. Either he was so desperate and wants to keep Manny happy or there is something else. Only speculation, but supposedly he is going through a divorce. Maybe he's thinks some things about him are going to come out and he may be a guy looking for a little forgiveness that probably would need to show he's willing to give some.

QUOTE (11and1 @ Sep 14, 2010 -> 11:36 AM) I don't see why this is in any way "unfortunate" for me, since being "simply wrong" on this board is utterly irrelevant in the larger context of my life. If being "right" is meaningful to you, congratulations. I didn't realize that the conversations here were a zero sum game. I would rephrase my speculation from "fastball" to the more debatable "better pitches to hit", but I'm sure there is, as they say, "a stat for that". Please feel free to shoot holes in the specifics. The overall point, which still seems logical to me, is that the ever-more-tiresome Jim Thome, as with most hitters, performs better surrounded by a better lineup up offering more protection. Again, feel free to feel more fortunate than me when you find the stat that proves you to be simply "right". I certainly won't be losing any sleep over it. I don't know if there's a stat for it, but its pretty laughable. For most of his White Sox career, Thome was sandwiched in between some solid hitters who match up to Cuddyer and Young pretty favorably. The entire protection issue is overrated if you ask me, especially with guys who will take walks. And even if you think its a huge issue, Thome was well protected during his days with the Sox.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Sep 14, 2010 -> 04:54 AM) I didn't want Thome back at the beginning of the offseason and many of us here didn't. I remember heck of lot posts calling for Kenny to get us a DH as no one wanted to go into the season with Mark Kotsay being the team's DH, after Matsui and Vlad signed with Angels and Rangers respectively and there was no other real options left Jim Thome was still available I was praying we get him back. Jim Thome did not cost us the division, however the rotating DH fiasco with Kotsay being a regular player might have, if we had Vlad hitting for us like he is carrying the Rangers for the last month, no one would be crying for Jimmy right now. Kenny and Ozzie are at fault for not bringing providing this team with a real DH until September which hopefully wasn't too little too late. Maybe Thome isn't going to cost the White Sox the playoffs, but its hard to see how he being a White Sox right now and not a Twin wouldn't enhance the White Sox chances. Look at Vlad and Matsui's stats last year and this. Thome's were better. Vlad has an .851 OPS this year. Jim Thome had an .864 OPS with the Sox last year playing with a bad heel. Thome is playing for a fraction of what they are playing for this year Thome was truly underrated and under appreciated during his time with the Sox. Its a shame a pretty significant part of the White Sox fanbase for some reason never embraced him and enjoyed what he was able to accomplish from the batter's box. For all the defending I see of guys like Manny Ramirez, giving him credit for others getting big hits, its almost sickening. KW's quote about Manny the other day really struck me. He was asked about his hair and he said that guys with over 500 homers we will bend the team rules for a bit. I know a guy with over 500 homers that wouldn't think about doing anything outside the team rules.

QUOTE (dasox24 @ Sep 11, 2010 -> 11:17 AM) Yeah, I'm not too worried. Bruce Pearl is the man regardless. Plus, you've got to be kidding yourself if you don't think cheating happens everywhere... even Illinois. He had too much contact with recruits - not the worst thing that could happen. At least he isn't paying players. Also, I grew up a die-hard Illinois fan, but get over it. The Pearl/Illinois thing happened almost 20 years ago. The ironic thing about the Pearl/Illinois deal is now Pearl is dealing with his cheating issue, and that story about the kid and the 200k from Kentucky the Sun Times reported is rumored to be sourced from Bruce Weber.

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Sep 13, 2010 -> 07:22 PM) The problem is that he had CLEAR possession with BOTH hands, touched both feet down and I think a hip touched the ground before he ever let the ball touch the ground. This wasn't a receiver who caught the ball and his first contact with the ground the ball popped out. He had already made the catch in what the league considers "in bounds". What would be interesting is say that play happened on the 50 yard line, the exact way except the receiver was never touched by a defender, as he pops up to run, the ball pops out, according to the rule, it wouldn't be a fumble but an incomplete pass. I'm sure if the Bears recovered it, it wouldn't be as obvious to Lovie as yesterday supposedly was and he would have thrown his little red flag and been rejected yet again. Detroit's coach said the call was correct. Obviously, the rule needs tweaking, but I'm a Bears fan, its a great rule today. I agree he had a lot better possession of it than a lot of plays I've seen in the past, but it was changed this year, probably to make it a lot easier to call on the field.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Sep 13, 2010 -> 11:33 AM) if Quentin is willing to accept a full time DH at the young age of 29, then I think the Sox will be more than happy to keep him. I am mean Quentin at DH can put up something like .250-30-100, and with more upside because his confidence will not be affected by his poor defense, and will keep him healthy thus leading to even better production But then having both Jones and Quentin in the lineup means that we will have two homer happy guys in the everyday lineup who will not hit above .250, and possibly 3 if we go with Flowers at catcher, do we really want that? Tyler Flowers is going to have to make some huge adjustments in a hurry if he wants to play in the big leagues. If you recall earlier this year, Flowers was really struggling in AAA then started hitting and it was mentioned Walker and the Sox tried to change his swing and he struggled with it and went back to what was working for him. The "change" was trying to make it shorter. Its extremely long and he struggled again with it after a little hot streak and has fanned both is major league ABs this year, and now has fanned over half his major league AB. You can get away with it at the lower levels, and its actually become a little longer as he's gone on. If he can't shorten his swing, he's going to be in a beer league pretty soon.

Bulls named Michael Reinsdorf President and COO. This actually may be a sign of things to come with the Sox. I know JR has stated he hope his children wouldn't want to follow in his footsteps, but Michael always has, and it appears JR is grooming him to take his spot eventually. I figured something had to be up with him when I saw him as part of the "team" try to recruit LeBron.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 13, 2010 -> 01:36 PM) Really, this has to be challenged. We actually did try playing Andruw Jones nearly every day for a good part of April/May and we saw pretty quickly what happened; he got hurt and his body broke down. That was followed by a good long slump after he'd had to sit out for a while to rest and recover. Jones has played just about as much as you can possibly play him without breaking down. What we ought to have understood though is that with guys like Jones, and yes, Thome...if you push them beyond the point where they start breaking down...their performance suffers. So...the Sox got worse average production from Thome than the Twins have...but that was fully predictable from Jim's splits; each of the last 4 years he wore down in the 2nd half, and his OPS dropped by an average of about 75 points from 1st half to 2nd half. The Twins got around that...by limiting Thome to 175 PA's in the first half, and now he's killing the ball in the 2nd half. Jones has put up good numbers for his role...but he's put up good numbers for his role because we haven't pushed him too far beyond his role. Try to get more out of him and he's going to tire out and break down. Which goes hand in hand with a criticism of Ron Washington last year. He played Jones too much was the concern. Jones has really be on a tear ever since his average was below .200. I really think, while he's worth his salary, people would be extremely dissappointed if he wound up playing every day.

QUOTE (buhbuhburrrrlz @ Sep 10, 2010 -> 10:15 PM) Why would Minny take 2 out of 3 on the road against the Sox? LOL. Minny just came off an extended homestand. Everybody has built them up like they're some amazing world beating team. Did you forget before their homestand they lost 3 out of 4 on the road to Texas? They just lost to Cleveland on the road. They're not some amazing road team. I'm not saying a sweep is probable. Tho I like the Sox to take 2 out of 3. Everything will have to be going our way to sweep them. Also we have Manny Ramirez and he changes the lineup now. It's gonna be a fun series as long as we don't stumble the rest of the way against KC. Heck we might even gain another game before we play Minnesota. Other than the fact that Minnesota took 2 out of 3 vs. the Sox their first 2 trips in this year in April and August, probably nothing. BTW, since Manny Ramirez became a White Sox, I am tied with him in RBI. The Sox need to sweep. 2 out of 3 isn't good enough.

QUOTE (elgonzo4sox @ Sep 11, 2010 -> 11:35 PM) And anyone who could have predicted in January that Thome's OPS would rebound to 1.042 this season, after it had declined from 1.014 to .973 to .865 to .864 during his 4 seasons on the south side, is a genius! Thomes ABs per HR on the south side: 11.67 in 2006, 12.34 in 2007, 14.79 in 2008, 15.00 in 2009 Thome as a Twin in 2010: 1 HR every 10.95 ABs Stat after stat can be cited to show that Thome was on a 4 year straight line decline during his time on the south side. It was reasonable for the Sox (or anyone) to expect the decline to continue, given Thome's age. So it wasn't bad to dump Thome when he was willing to play part time for $1.5 million? Konerko's production had declined in recent years. I suppose if the Sox traded him for some obsure AA players and ate part of his salary and he had the year he's having this year, you would have had no problem with that either? A HR every 15 AB is still 30 in 450 AB and 40 in 600 AB. I don't see where that's an issue.

Don't get too excited. Here's a KW quote: "That's pretty much all I'm going to say on it, because I don't know what the future holds," added Williams. "I don't know how we are going to finish. "We are driven by the revenue stream that comes in. People might not like it but it is what it is. We have to at least be able to be a break-even operation, and try to win at the same time." Better enjoy the next week or so of Manny before he decides to take another vacation, as he and Mark Teahen, may just cost you Konerko. At least KW finally clarified the break even operation. Notice he said "at least".

Just think, last year at this time a lot of posters wanted the Sox to pay money to have Paulie play elsewhere.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 10:27 AM) Our team was in it primarily because of an outstanding run against NL teams, where the DH was not part of the equation. Notice how mediocre we were prior to and after the NL stretch. Just look at out record against the AL and AL Central. This is an excellent point. The Sox were 12 games over .500 against the NL. They are 2 games over .500 against the AL. While half of those games against the NL incorporated the DH, they were against teams that usually don't play with one. The rotating DH has not worked. Maybe it could if you actually had everyday-quality players rotating, but even some of the better hitters struggle when DHing once in a while. A week or so ago, the White Sox had the 13th ranked production out of the DH spot in the AL. I don't know if its changed, Manny has probably raised the overall average a couple of points, but no run production.

QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 10:17 AM) This is an argument that will live for years on soxtalk, but didn't I hear recently that the Sox were second in runs scored since the All-Star break? How much better would Thome have made this team? He could not have helped the bullpen, he could not have helped Floyd or Peavy in the first 2 months and I sincerely do not know if he would have helped Beckham, Ramirez, Quentin, etc. who sucked so badly at the start of the season. Thome, Ozzie, and KW are the popular scapegoats because its easy point a finger at one person and a say, "That's why our season was disappointing", but we had the horses to run this race, they just didn't run their best. He certainly could have helped earlier in the season. Kotsay was hitting .333 his last 20 games according to the graphic last night, but its a pretty empty .333. This month Mr. Unclutch Jim Thome has 6 walks and 5 homers in 23 plate appearances. He has 10 homers his last 60 plate appearances. I cannot see any argument that says getting rid of him, basically kicking him out the door as he would have played for whatever you would have paid him, was anything but a horrendous move. I've seen lots of attempts, but they make zero sense.

Defensively, he's a DH. Maybe see if he can play 1B, but he's probably not going to be very good there. Offensively, if the Sox let him go I think they will rue the day they made that decision.

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 07:50 AM) If we signed guys just to stop Minny from getting them, well that's kind of silly. As it turned out yeah having Thome probably would have made this race closer. But the decision to not sign *Thome* AT THE TIME was not that bad of a decision. It's almost like going back to a draft after 5 years and figuring out who should have been drafted. But honestly, I believe if we did sign Thome, we'd still be in this spot and people would be ripping on K-Dubya and Oz for going into the season with an aging DH who couldn't play full time. I believe, AT THE TIME, it was a horrible decision. The Sox needed a LH hitter. KW talked about the list in his back pocket. It was a no brainer move. Ozzie's argument was silly. The "we'll just get Adam Dunn or Adrian Gonzalez" BS if the rotating DH doesn't work, doesn't work either. Besides, check Thome's numbers. Obviously he can't play everyday anymore, but Gardenhire is using him exactly how Ozzie could have used him and still had his rotating DH,only just a partial, and Thome's production during those times is just as good, if not better than those other 2 players, and at a fraction of the cost in both talent and money.I never suggested signing Thome to keep Minnesota from getting him although teams to claim waiver players for that same purpose, and wind up paying them just as much, if not more than what Thome is paid in 2010. Signing Thome would have served the dual role of helping the Sox and keeping him off the Twins however, which in hindsight, would have been an excellent thing. As for your last comment about the aging DH who can't play every day, look at all the love for Manny. He gets credit for just about every run the Sox score even though he has zero RBI and scored one run. Consistency is not a Soxtalk trait.

QUOTE (WHITESOXRANDY @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 04:19 AM) $ 3 MIL. for Thome, Aubrey Huff or one month of useless Manny Ramirez ? Thome would have done nothing for the Sox just listen to the guys who are also saying Manny is responsible for just about every run the Sox score even though he hasn't quite driven one in yet. What many fail to recognize is beyond the fact that not saying Thome would have helped the Sox win this year, Minnesota not having him would have hurt them. I know Thome is a very nice, classy gentleman, but I bet you it must feel extra nice being a huge part of killing a team that didn't think he could help them win playoff chances, while helping propel his team into the playoffs. It may be old and said 1,000,000 times, but not re-signing Thome was nothing but a mistake. Obviously nothing can be done about it now, but its ridiculous some posters refuse to acknowlede that fact. Since the ASB, he has 100 official AB with 13 homers and an OPS over 1.200. If Manny did that he'd be a God. He's a God to some just being on deck when somebody does something. Thome has taken Morneau's injury as an excuse and thrown it out the window, and as a small sidenote has given himself a 100% shot at a contract for next season and 600 homers if he wishes.