Dick Allen

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 12:03 AM) Maybe Kenny should pick up a paper, or watch the news because they keep talking about the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Maybe some of the people who would normally go to a game, are trying to figure out how to pay their mortgage. Maybe some of them are worried about the future stability of their job, and might not want to fork down 160 to 240 bucks to take the family to the game. I consider myself a pretty well off fella. But when my company decides to close 20 percent of its locations in the US, I start to curb back some of my discretionary spending. Kenny and Ozzie also have been talking about fire sales and unpopular moves all year long. That sends a message. You can't talk about breaking up the team, and then after a quick run then wonder why large amounts of people are not paying 20 bucks more a ticket to see the team you called crap 10 days before. Sometimes I wonder about perspective of Kenny and Jerry. You make some excellent points. I'm doing fine right now, but I work for someone else. I could walk into the office tomorrow and be told I'm out of a job. Then what? It makes you a little hesitant to spend money on something that really isn't necessary. I just heard yesterday the ratio of people looking for jobs vs. the amount of available openings is pretty ugly. I'm confident I won't be laid off, but who knows what's next and if you lose your job, how long until you find another one? There was another article I read were most execs who lose their jobs these days will NEVER make the money they were making again.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:56 PM) Ok, so tell me, why do the White Sox not belong on that list of teams? Are the White Sox not from a major market like the NY teams, or the Red Sox? Are they not in fact in the same city as the Cubs are? I don't understand why the White Sox should not be amongst that group? As for the fact that they lowered their payroll and increased prices, this team is the last team that should be considered cheap. They have consistently been amongst the highest in payrolls despite the middle in attendance. How can you argue that they should do more? Why does it cost more for a beer at USCF than at Wrigley Field? They can belong on the list, but except for 2005, the White Sox haven't won a playoff series since when, 1919? Its not like they have this tradition of winning they are trying to sell. They have had some nice seasons, and a few not so nice ones. I really can't say they are a top 5 organization in baseball. They know what they are up against attendance-wise. Everyone knew they would have to win to get a decent walk up. They haven't won until recently. This is my 20th season with season tickets. This has been the first year I called them cheap. I

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:28 PM) It's not blaming as much as it's just being honest. Why is the truth so offensive to you? And secondly, for as many high payroll teams the White Sox have put out there, and amongst the group of teams you mention, they certainly have the most volatile fan base to try and impress. And to claim that the White Sox are not concerned about their fanbase, and don't go above and beyond to make the experience a pleasurable one for all types of fan, is just ludicrous. The truth is the fans haven't come because the product was crap. JR said the 2008 was boring. Its like a restaurant winning some prestigious award, but saying their food wasn't really so good. To fix it, they are going to use cheaper ingredients and raise the prices on the menu. That should fix things. The White Sox raised ticket prices and lowered payroll. What other team did that? They had the season ticketholder playoff money held hostage. I think that is something that is very important. If they sell off and aren't in a position to collect non refundable playoff money from season ticketholders, the poster suggesting a huge drop in renewals, probably will be right if the Sox try raise prices again. Considering JR's edict is to not lose money, so you would have to assume they didn't lose any last year, wouldn't the White Sox actions suggest they were anticipating a drop? Just remember, the only teams more expensive for a family to see are the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs. Even the Red Sox had trouble selling out playoff games last year. Gammons wrote they had tickets available day of game, and they weren't give backs. The White Sox gave the Dodger series a very high pricing tier. They priced a lot of people out. The numbers speak for themselves. That's not on the fans, that's on whoever tried to get an extra 15-20 a seat.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:17 PM) I'm sorry, but I really just don't buy into this. I think people are going waaaayyy too far in crying about this economy. Sure, the economy is bad. Sure, people are losing their jobs. Sure, people lost money in the stock market. But honestly, how many of us here have had their lives changed in the past 18 months so significantly so that we can no longer afford to go to White Sox games? It's like a massive social excuse for everything bad that happens to people now...the economy, the economy, the economy. While it's certain some people have had their lives significantly changed, whether it be through losing their jobs, losing some of their 401k, etc., this has not been such a great disaster that 95% of our fans cannot continue to support the team as they always have. Also keep in mind until recently the Sox have been below .500 for most of the season. They were 33-36 coming into the Dodgers series. When you have a team that had Corky Miller batting 6th, Lillibridge and Wise leading off at times, it really doesn't inspire a very good walk-up especially considering they jacked up the prices for that series. As I stated earlier, its more expensive to go to a White Sox game than to go to any other team's games except for 4, and those 4 all have payrolls significantly higher than the White Sox. The Red Sox were the closest and there's is $26 million higher. Blaming the fans for not showing up when your team has played like the White Sox have played most of the season isn't going to go well.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:09 PM) This is Chicago, not Kansas City, not Minnesota, not Detroit, not Baltimore, not Milwaukee. This is a major market with a relatively high standard of living being achieved. Prices are not going to be what they are in Cincinnati. Get over it. Sox fans are probably some of the most finnicky, most prone to complaining and whining, and defensive people in all of sports. The Dodgers series should have drawn better; it was a series against the best team in baseball right now, one of the mlb's historic franchises, a team from another major market, etc. I don't think there is any question that the team should have drawn better that series. The state of Illinois has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country. People are hurting. If they are only going to go to one or two games all season, why wouldn't they pick Boston or the Yankees, they are far more interesting than a Manny-less Dodger team? Or why not save a lot of money and see the Tigers or Twins in a divison match up that means a little more? Whoever priced the game is trying to live off the 59 WS. They already celebrated that in 2005. If people were really that interested in the Dodgers they can go see them 8 miles north every season.

It also probably didn't help that the Chairman called the 2008 team boring. I'm a season ticketholder, so KW isn't speaking about me, but it really pisses me off. Does anyone in the White Sox front office pay any attention to the news and current events? Maybe if they did they may figure out why people don't want to spend $250 on cheap seats to take their kids to a Tuesday night game against the Dodgers, a team they played in the WS well before most of the people in attendance were born. Don't add anyone huge KW and blame the attendance. The attendance was gigantic in 2006, KW who did you add? It was decent in 2007 even though the team was pathetic, hey KW who did you add? Last year you added Ken Griffey Jr. and paid him a pretty decent amount of money to be mediocre even though he told you he was having some knee troubles. Huge addition KW.

According to the Baltimore Sun here's something at least the Orioles discussed with KW. It doesn't really say if KW had interest or not: Pie, the 24-year-old outfielder who has started just three of the Orioles' past 21 games, is eight for his past 20 with four RBIs while getting limited at-bats with the emergence of rookie Nolan Reimold in left field. According to sources, the Orioles discussed Pie with the Chicago White Sox in a potential deal revolving around third baseman Josh Fields, but it's not known how much interest, if any, the White Sox still have in the outfielder.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:41 PM) It is what it is. That was 15 years ago, I guess when the Sox won in 2005 and they have boosted the payroll to over 100mil, I dont really think much about what used to be. Would winning in 1994 have changed my life? I dont know. Right now the Sox are in the upper half in terms of payroll and in the lower half in terms of attendance. Unless you think the Sox are about bleeding money, either attendance has to go up, or payroll has to go down (unless they make the playoffs etc and get a boosted revenue stream.) Payroll went down from last year. According to USA today, only SD had a bigger pct. decrease.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:43 PM) Not only does the economy suck, but ticket and parking prices were raised, plus we made moves more in salary dump mode than trying to win mode this winter, so ripping the fans is just stupid. And how is the Dodgers series an eye opener? It should be an eye opener that the people in our ticket office are freaking morons for charging premium prices for a midweek series against an NL team in June right before the Cubs visit. The idiocy of whoever made that decision is the eye opener. If anything it should be an eye opener to whoever on their staff set pricing. What do they expect?

We knew this comment was coming. He put together a team that had no leadoff man, Dewayne Wise and Brent Lillibridge playing regularly, raised ticket prices lowered payroll in this economy, and the ineviatable happened. Its like a bakery saying they could only afford to sell day old bread and then saying we'd like to make some fresh stuff, but nobody is buying our crap. The Dodgers aren't a big White Sox draw. You overprice the tickets on a weekday with a day game thrown in, and mention that when guess what............................crying about money. Other teams have all kinds of special deals. $1 items for concessions. Not the White Sox. They even charge more for a beer than the Cubs. I believe they also raised the price to park your car. I'm really seething when I read this article. Its so damn predictable. Sorry, KW. Wake up and look at the world. Until a week or so ago, you had a boring, mediocre team. You're family cost index is eclipsed by only the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Cubs. None of those teams bother with the Brent Lillibridge's of the world. Put together a club the fans can believe in and they will come. Its been proven. Try to sell them a bill of goods and you wind up with a sea of green. At least it looks better than blue.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:18 PM) I don't believe that you can offer someone less than their present salary in arbitration. You can offer a 20% cut, but if you did that to Dotel, unless he was looking for something ridiculous, he would win. You could offer him anything you want before you offer arb.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:16 PM) I have the same sick feeling I did when MacDougal was added for Daniel Cortes and Lumsden. Yuck. Good, because MacDougal was lights out for the Sox when the first acquired him. It doesn't hurt to strenghten the bullpen. 2 back of Detroit and Detroit is woeful on the road and have 47 road games the second half.

4 runs in 2 out in the first. Marquez is meat.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 05:58 PM) This is the best post I've seen in this entire thread, although Balta has had some very good ones as well. For most of this season, the vast majority of posters have admitted our offensive core is aging. As southsideirish71 identified, there are four key contributors who are getting up there in age. Yes, these guys are still valuable to our team, but the question is for how long? We can’t really depend on these guys for more than one or two more years (perhaps 3 for Dye if moved to DH). We finally have several high-upside position playing prospects in our system that could possibly replace these guys over the next few seasons. Flowers, Danks, Allen & Viciedo are legitimate talents who have a solid chance at sticking in the pros. If they do, they allow cost certainty that’s needed to resign other core players (Quentin, Danks, Bobby) and allow us to fill holes through free agency. Some of these guys may not make it, but to automatically assume none of these guys will be impact players in crazy. I don’t care how many of our past prospects have flopped, we have a new development regime in place and this group of prospects has so much more talent. For those of you so willing to trade the farm for a short-term fix, how do you expect to replace these veterans in the next year or two? The Sox will have some money to fill a hole here or there, but we can’t replace four starting position players. Furthermore, we don’t exactly have another wave of position-playing prospects coming behind this one. It could be years before we can fill some of these holes internally if we trade all our current prospects away. It just blows my mind how much “sell sell sell” talk was going on this website just two weeks. A seven game winning streak later, now everyone wants to forfeit a possibly bright future for a guy under control for a year and a half. Please don’t mention the type a compensation he will bring either. Good prospects in the upper levels in the minors are worth so much more, because they’ve already gotten this far while your two new draft picks may not. If Halladay could be had for lets say Poreda, Richard, Allen and some A ball prospect I’d accept it in a heartbeat. The problem is he will cost lots of near MLB-ready talent which is just not worth when we’re already four strong in our rotation. Beckham, Ramirez, Getz and Konerko are all signed through next year. All but Konerko should be around for quite some time. Quentin should be around a long while. Dye has an option for next season. AJ is signed through next season. The old core, Konerko, Thome, Dye, AJ, Contreras, Dotel all have huge contracts. There will be money to plug in the holes when they depart. Pitching wins. Halladay, Buerhle, Danks, Floyd is a pretty good start for a rotation, and should keep the team in contention as long as they stay healthy. I don't think the Sox will get Halladay but he brings so much to the table. He pitches more innings than anyone else. He pitches higher quality innings than anyone else. He wins and saves your bullpen. I know a lot of people think Allen and Viciedo and Flowers and Poreda and Mitchell and JorDanks are all going to be stars. I certainly hope they are, but chances are not all of them will be, and maybe not even one of them. If some halfway reasonable combination of these players gets you Roy Halladay (I wouldn't give them all up, but 2 of them with Richard or maybe 3 of them without), you don't hesitate. If Halladay can't be signed and the Sox aren't in a position to win in 2010, you spin him somewhere else. Maybe the economy is better, and some other prospects or players come the Sox way. KW has always swung hard when it came to big name pitchers. I can't see where he hasn't or at least won't inquire about Halladay.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 05:51 PM) IB/DH maybe? I wonder though why other folks were high on Flowers as a C, but not our fans? I was under the impression he was a pretty decent backstop. I only read and heard reports of his defensive prowess up until spring training when I witnessed it myself. Supposedly he's improved some since, but if he was the everyday catcher for the Sox since opening day this year, he'd be on a first name basis with all the people in the front row of the scout seats. The way most Sox pitchers hold runners on, its really not that imperitve IMO to have a catcher with a cannon. They aren't going to throw most of these runners out anyway. You do need someone who can block the ball and call a decent game. I just think if Flowers progresses into a real big-time hitter, the Sox won't want him to take the abuse that catchers have to take, especially considering he really doesn't help you out there defensively.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 05:45 PM) I stand by my point. I think the Sox make it a point to try to be a better organization than that to people, and I think it benefits them in the long term. Where could we ever get off asking again a person to switch his agent away from Boras if that's what we do to a family that listens to our request? Why would you willingly sign a contract with that team if you're a FA? Wouldn't you demand extra NTC protection, that sort of thing? KW traded Jeremy Reed, who at the same age as Jordan is right now, hit .409 at Birmingham and had an OPS 200 points higher than Jordan's is right now, and stole 18 bases in half a season as part of a package for Freddy Garcia, who , while a nice pitcher, couldn't hold Roy Halladay's jock. KW works for the Chicago White Sox, not the Danks family. Its not like they would be throwing Jordan on the street with nowhere to go. If a deal made sense to the White Sox, KW wouldn't hesitate to give Jordan Danks up. Mr. Danks might not like it, but that's baseball. Jordan would still be a pro playing for another organization. I don't see where that's treating him or his family poorly.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 05:33 PM) Jordan Danks is not an option because of his brother and we all ought to understand that. Both he and his brother switched agents and specifically worked with this team. If you're trading Jordan, you better be dealing John at the same time, because otherwise, you're taking advantage of that family and treating them like garbage. BS. Jordan Danks was taken care of quite nicely for a 7th round draft pick. If trading him gives the White Sox a better chance to win, they won't keep him around because he's John's little brother, and I'm sure if Roy Halladay came back in the deal, John might understand pretty well, especially if he was getting sized for a ring a little while later. I'm not saying KW will openly shop Jordan, but if Toronto said he needed to be included to get Halladay, and the package is reasonable enough to KW, he'd be gone. For all I know Toronto has enough OF anyway, but to say he's not available when attempting to acquire a player of Halladay's ilk, it would be stupid.

While its probably a longshot Halladay is ever a White Sox, if it was because of a reluctance to give up Tyler Flowers or Jordan Danks, it would be stupid. This is one of the best if not the best pitcher in baseball. Everyone at AA and AAA should be fair game for Toronto.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:07 PM) Short-term yes, he gives your line-up a huge advantage, like Mauer/Piazza/Victor Martinez. IF IF IF you have other huge mashers to play those positions. If Konerko/Dye/Thome are gone, then it's between Viciedo, Allen, Fields and Flowers for that DH/1B spot in all likelihood. Preferably, you have the athletic Allen at 1B (maybe in a platoon with a Ross Gload/Conine type from the RH side) and Flowers at catcher, simply to balance the line-up a bit. Catching takes a lot out of you physically. Flowers is a big guy, he's going to take a lot of shots behind the plate. If he ever becomes a huge offensive force, especially considering he probably will only be average at best defensively, they will move him to another position to keep him healthier, and in the line-up more. Piazza was a guy the Dodgers always considered moving, but he balked. There was talk of moving Rodriquez to second as there has been talk about moving Mauer from behind the plate, and those two are or were premiere defensive catchers. Hopefully all the guys like Flowers, and Allen and Jordan Danks and Mitchell and Viciedo pan out. Chances are at least a couple will not. At least we have hope. I think Beckham will be a star and I also think the White Sox veteran players know he will be one too.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:17 PM) C-Lee definitely had a huge payday, and we got Pods and cleared the way for all of our under the radar moves that led to the World Series title. Good for both sides, and El Caballo doesn't strike me as one of those players exceedingly distraught over not getting a ring. Always has been more of a me-first player from everything I've seen and read. Sometimes when you clear a Jimenez/Lofton here, a Sheffield there (Tigers), it's addition by subtraction. Same thing with Swisher over the long haul. If Houston, a team that was in the WS in 2005 offered you the same contract they offered CLee, and you were the same player, you wouldn't take it? I can't blame a guy for taking $100 million. I would assume Houston at that time had just as much of a chance to win as anyone else. Its like the people who ripped ARod for signing with Texas saying he was about the money and not the ring. No other team offered a contract to ARod at that time within $100 million of the one he signed. He would have been a fool not take it. I heard Rick Sutcliffe rip ARod for signing it. The same Rick Sutcliffe that moaned his way out of LA and Cleveland when he played because of money and it certainly wasn't the type of money ARod would have left on the table.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:08 PM) If we acquired/bought the best Cuban pitcher to come along since Contreras, and one with a much higher upside due to his age. Supposedly his price tag is $30-60 million. I'm thinking the Sox stay out of that one. Maybe they trade for him in a couple years after he struggles with the Yankees and get NY to pick up some of the rest of his contract. I don't see JR approving that kind of expenditure right now.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 07:43 PM) Having Viciedo under our control for 6 years makes that contract a lot let stressful...he might not turn out to be Miguel Cabrera, but he seems to be a run producer...and the power was never a question about him until he started playing in BIRM. Sure, an 800 OPS instead of around 650+ would be much nicer, but if you bring in enough guys like Mitchell, Danks, Viciedo and A. Chapman, some of them will end up being All-Stars eventually. To hear Harrelson speak, Flowers is expected by him to hit 30-40 homers on a consistent basis every year, Mike Piazza type numbers (V. Martinez/Mauer, production levels etc.). Viciedo is only 20, but a .650 OPS in AA has to be dissappointing, considering many thought he would be a major leaguer this year. His 20 errors are alarming as well. I'm not panicked about him, but I think the White Sox hoped he'd be a little closer to major league ready by now considering the cash layout for him. I think he's going to be getting a position change soon. Hopefully he can be El Caballo II.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) The interesting thing about Flowers is...he could actually improve offensively but take a huge dip in trade value. If he's not a C in the future. So, in a way that has nothing to do with his offensive future, it might be sell high time. He's not super-young, just young. If he becomes a 40 homer guy with a .400 OBP, the Sox won't want him behind the plate.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 07:33 PM) Which was what, 1/4, 1/5 of the bonus our 7th round pick got? Jordan Danks was projected as a finer prospect than Kenny Williams Jr. a guy who didn't even start most of the time in college and pretty much flunked out. For a team that watches its resources as closely as the White Sox, this was a ridiculous move. There was a 99 % chance he was nothing, and a guy with the exact same history with the exact same skill set and potential named something other than Williams wouldn't have received anything near $150k. If they want to draft all their kids, thats fine by me, but don't waste resources on reaches.

They also gave him a $150k bonus.