Dick Allen

QUOTE (beck72 @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 12:34 PM) If teams would be willing to give up as much for Thornton as they would for Jenks, the sox would probably jump at the chance. Yet I don't see that many teams willing to do that on a guy not proven as a closer. The other thing is Thornton is a lot older than most think. I'm pretty sure he's 32 or 33.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 11:07 AM) I don't think Street was that bad this year. Just not up to his usual standards... and probably a little dicey for a closer... but as a setup guy? Not bad. Remember, Brad Lidge looked average to bad in 2006-2007 and a new environment worked out very well for him. I think a change of place could be exactly what Street needs. He's got the talent. And he's only 25 years old. Street doesn't have near the tools Lidge does. Never did. But as a set-up guy if you aren't giving up much, he probably is OK.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 03:56 PM) So, the A’s just traded a solid #3 starter, a guy with the potential to be the next Carlos Beltran, and an above-average Reliever for one-year of a good hitter playing in an excellent hitters park. I love Billy Beane, but this I don’t get. Street sucks. Gonzalez may be a good one. I don't know how Smith is a solid #3 yet. Its funny how on this board Carlos Gomez will never be any good and Gonzalez who had worse numbers is going to be a star. They either sign Holliday or flip him at the deadline if they aren't contending. It could be a disaster for Oakland, but for 2009, they received the best player in the deal.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 10:00 AM) Yeah, but where did that rep come from? I bet anyone that 99 percent of the writers who are writing those sentiments havent seen the kid play and probably dont even know what number he wears. People have been down on Cuban ballplayers for awhile, saying they are undisciplined, do not want to learn, lazy, etc. I will say from watching Alexei last season that alot of these people are incredibly stupid for writing what they do. Even when Lexy defected, people were talking about how his talent wouldnt translate and they chastised Torres for saying he was MLB ready right away. I sent an email to one of the guys who ripped him a little bit. The guy supposedly is the Peter Gammons of Cuban baseball. The one thing I have a problem with is the assumption a 19 year old is ready to go really based on Ramirez who is 26. I don't believe any Cuban defector has had much of an offensive impact his first year in the US other than Ramirez, and this kid is only 19.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 09:34 AM) Not sure what any of that has to do with anything. (1) The Sox have one of the highest payrolls in baseball and are profitable. But some fans continue to think we should act like a small market team. Whatever. (2) Regarding Jenks' K-rate... his big K year was also his worst season. The last two years he's had both a declining K-rate and a declining ERA. Call me crazy but I prefer a lower ERA. (3) Jenks is a big boy.... true. And you're worried this will limit his longevity. Give me a break... he's 27 years old. Frankly I'm not worried about 5 years from now. I'm worried about 2009. (4) What in the world would calling Theo and offering to trade Jenks for Papelbon prove? You could have the same conversation with Theo about Nathan, K-Rod, or Mariano Rivera and the answer would still be no. Bottom line: There is a small group of elite closers in baseball. Jenks is in that group. If we get rid of him, we won't have one anymore. I fail to see how it would make our team better next year. Once again, you are coming to a conclusion prematurely. If the White Sox trade Jenks, they will be getting something in return. What that something is would determine if it were improving the team or not. As far as Jenks/Papelbon, you were the one comparing them. I'm just giving my opinion that Papelbon is worth more. As far as the White Sox payroll, I am not treating it like a small market team. I am being realistic. KW is not going to want to pay $10 million + to a closer. Up until 2008, which took 2 years of getting the bullpen being pounded, he didn't want to pay more than $2 million for any reliever. As for a declining K rate, Jenks has gotten the job done while his K's have been in free fall. There is no doubt about it, although even with his stats, the games have become a little more interesting. Obviously, he could be an exception, but through the years power pitchers with declining k rates usually start getting lit up. I have always been of the opinion Jenks career will be brief, taking into account the screw and I see a guy who gets pretty heavy during the season. KW has stated he would trade anyone if it improved the team. He won't trade Jenks unless he feels the team will be better because of it. The White Sox have some improving to do. Jenks is a guy who teams might be inclined to overpay to acquire, and a guy whose effectiveness may start weakening. I have no idea what KW is being offered if he threw his name out there as a possibility for the Mets or any other team, and I'm not advocating trading him for some minor leaguer who has a lot of tools but hasn't performed. Also Jenks' name being out there may just be some BS, or it may be KW asking for more than the moon for him. All I and the others are saying is if you are going to trade him before he makes $10 million or more a year, now is the time you will maximize value unless some contender has an injury near the trade deadline, but then you are only going to get prospects. If you want major league ready players who will contribute right away, now is the time. I wouldn't trade him for the same package the Cubs are supposedly offering for Peavy. Obviously SD is having money problems but quality is more important than quantity when you are talking about dealing pitchers like Jenks and Peavy.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 01:37 PM) They'll put up 7 and 8 win seasons like this year is going to be at current pace, but they'll never get back to where they were earlier in the decade without having uninhibited trips to the Illinois talent bank like they did in those days. When they were winning big, their recruiting classes were always ranked in the bottom half of the Big Ten. When they did get a stud recruiting class including a ton of supposed 4 and 5 star players from Illinois, most of those guys turned out to be busts. From their most heralded class since Ferentz took over, I believe less than half of them are actually still Hawkeyes, and an even smaller percentage are contributing. I know one thing, if I was an OL and wanted to play in the NFL, Ferentz would be the guy I want to play for. They have had a nice pipeline in FL. When Hayden Fry was there, NJ and Texas. Chuck Long who was the closest runner up in Heisman history when he lost to Bo Jackson was from Wheaton. But the only other school that offered him a scholarship was NIU. They have 4 losses this year. And the biggest drubbing they took was by 5 points. That's with a first year starter at QB. I think their success next season depends on Greene sticking around.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 10:59 PM) Maybe I'm wrong but I have a hard time imagining that Red Sox fans are sitting around talking about trading Jonathan Papelbon for the good of their ballclub. (Papelbon is a few months older than Jenks, makes a little more money, and has basically the same amount of MLB service time.) The Red Sox have a different payroll level. Paplebon's K rate hasn't been nosediving. He doesn't weigh 300 pounds. There's reason to believe he will have a longer career than Jenks. If you were the White Sox GM and Theo called and offered Papelbon for Jenks straight up, would you do it or hang up the phone? The big reason for me in considering trading Jenks is money. If he continues to perform as he's been, 2009 will still be cheap, 2010 will still be OK. 2011 will be a lot of money and I don't know what kind of package you could get for the current Bobby Jenks making 8 figures, one season from free agency. Looking at it, his trade value may never be higher than it is right now. If teams don't want to give you a package where you get what you're looking for, then I don't think there has been one post to get rid of him anyway. If you could get what you want, I see nothing wrong with it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:11 PM) Sure...and we should have traded Cotts and Politte after 2005 as well...and Crede. Marte, at the time, was not only one of the best LH relief pitchers in baseball...he had a great contract. Of course, hindsight being 20/20, it's easy to reach the conclusion that KW should have traded him...or Borchard. Heck, we had so many first round draft picks and pitching prospects go down with injuries...we might have traded the likes of Parque, Barcelo, Danny Wright, Matt Ginter, Jason Stumm, Jon Rauch (who was at one time close to the best pitching prospect in the game), etc. Just think if we had traded both Borchard and Rauch at their peaks? Well, it's impossible to predict the future...just like picking stocks. All we can do is make educated guesses. Apparently, KW's educated guess to hold onto Brian Anderson and dump Aaron Rowand was the wrong one. Not the idea itself, but the player he felt could replace Rowand. Maybe BA will redeem himself, but I doubt it happens in Chicago. We shall see. You are just making my point that trading Jenks is not that crazy.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 06:38 PM) Didn't we trade Marte for reasons that were not related to his performance on the field, to be more specific, he showed up late a few times and Ozzie did not get along with him? We didn't exactly get much for him in Rob Mackowiak.... And Shingo...well, as much as I didn't expect him to so quickly become terrible, he was incapable of throwing a fastball in the high eighties and his success was solely based on one pitch. It certainly wasn't unforseeable that he would become ineffective once hitters learned to look at the pitch. Of course, he did seem to forget rather suddenly how to get any other pitch in the zone... The point is that Shingo and Marte are not particularly analogous to the Jenks situation and thus not really good examples. That being said, it's clear that Kenny understands the trends that occur around him in the industry and is quite capable of understanding what happens when closers start reaching the stratosphere in terms of salary. Not that any of us know for certain, but I would guess that Kenny falls squarely in the camp that high 7 figures is too much to pay for a guy that pitches 60 innings a season. I wouldn't be shocked at all if Bobby was dealt, but think it would have to be in a package for a player Kenny has really, really been fond of for a long time... I was talking about trading Marte after the 2003 season. He hadn't played for Ozzie yet and was probably the best left handed set-up man in baseball. As it turns out, he was a guy who was much more comfortable playing for a quiet Manuel than he was with Ozzie. After 2003, Marte was one of the best pitchers on the White Sox. After 2004 ended, Shingo was one of the best pitchers on the White Sox. If they were traded then, it turns out it would not have been a mistake, which is the point I was making. Jenks future success is not promised. I don't think KW will trade Jenks, but it wouldn't be a total shock for the reasons I have stated before.

What is the deal with Torborg? He's always with the major league team.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 03:59 PM) I didn't think Baldelli was worth it either til I saw how he did in the against the Sox and in WS. He's still fast and a good fielder He's a free agent and probably won't get more than $1-2 mil a year. To dismiss Hillebrand as a cancer would be rash. Couldn't hurt to give him a tryout if we're looking at Fields to open ST. The article says their are 6 other teams interested in Rocco so if they're satisfied that he can play back up OF why wouldnt the Sox. Speed, power and defense off the bench for cheap. While I like Rocco and wish him the best, the Sox have enough OF's. Unfortunately, he could be done at any time. Hillebrand is a known ass.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 03:50 PM) No I haven't heard any rumors that links the Sox with these 2. Hillebrand is trying to make a comeback as a corner infielder/DH and 6 teams are showing interest in Baldelli as a backup outfielder. Could the White Sox be one of them ? Couldn't hurt to invite Hillebrand to camp and give him a look and Baldelli though battling Mitochondrial disease is still fairly athletic. Thoughts ? Baldelli has a tough time playing a whole game. Hillebrand is a cancer. No thanks to both.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 02:44 PM) Please.... Shingo had one year wonder written all over him. And, with the advantage of hindsight, trading Marte may have been a smart thing... But you can't make decisions on players we have today (like Jenks) using a rear view mirror and cherry-picking comparisons of guys who didn't repeat success. But you can't just say Jenks will be one of the best pitchers on the team in 2009 either. A lot of things can happen. My point is you have to get a lot for Jenks, but while supposedly as you say, Shingo had one year wonder written all over him, there are signs that Jenks production may start to tale off. He went on the DL last year. The buttons on his jersey look like they are ready to pop. His k rate dropped again. Don't give him away, but if you can add some quality pieces, this offseason may be a great time to move him.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 02:28 PM) If Greene gets traded, I think a few people will be surprised how good he actually is offensively. We heard the same thing when dirty 30 went to a hitter's paradise aka USCF. Greene's .542 road OPS in 2008 doesn't impress me, and considering I like Uribe, Anderson, Contreras, I'm easily impressed.

QUOTE (Cubano @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 01:24 PM) I went to see Juan Miranda (Yankees) last year in Harrisburg, PA when his Trenton AA team played the Senators. I asked him the following question: Is this AA league stronger than the cuban league? He said no. The cuban league is stronger. Yet he hit .303 from 2002-2004 in the Cuban league. But hit .265 3 years later in the easier league.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 01:57 PM) I've seen some good arguments in this thread... But I'm still of the opinion that we should keep him. I have a hard time understanding how teams get better by trading away their best pitchers. If we're writing off 2009 maybe... but not if we want to compete next year. Then you would have been against trading Marte after 2003. You would have been against trading Shingo in 2004. Obviously, no one here is saying give him away. If you can get a lot for him, it should be considered for a guy with all his red flags who pitches 65 innings a year. If 2 years from now he gets eight figures, $10,000,000 for 65 innings is over $150k/per inning.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 11:33 AM) In my opinion you have to KNOW someone can take over the role of the closer, or any critical role you are going to fill when you trade someone who has shown they are an ace closer. Bobby Jenks has shown he can do it and I still wonder if there wasn't something physically (or mentally) holding him back even though he was very successful. I continue to point out his fastball speed getting back up to 95 to 97 or so and that curve breaking like it did towards the last month or so. You don't give up someone like Jenks for maybe's and expect to win titles Jenks was as huge of "maybe" as there could be when he assumed the closer's role. The result was spectacular. I doubt KW would trade Jenks if he didn't have worries about a performance drop off, but signs are there. He isn't in very good shape. Spent some time on the DL and his strikeout rate is diminishing. He also is arb eligible. It could be time to unload him if there is a nice return.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:52 AM) I look at Dotel in almost the same way I view Vazquez. Both look really good on paper, but the reality finds something lacking. Now Dotel pitched well in the post-season, but I think you'll find a noticeable downtrend when Linebrink went down and Dotel had to pitch more often in the 8th, rather than just the 7th. In other words, and I don't have the statistic to prove it, whenever he had a really clutch or important game situation, it feels like he failed about 50% of the time. He always pitched great when he was just getting some work in or the lead was more than 2-3 runs, but he really struggled many times in either tie games or when we only had a lead of a couple of runs. In August, he had a 5.56 ERA and FIVE (YES, 5) homers surrendered in only 11 1/3 IP. This is back to my point about Dotel pitching WORSE when Linebrink went down (around July 22nd) and he had to be the 8th inning guy, not just the 7th. September, a so-so 4.32 ERA and two homers in 8 1/3 IP. All told, he gave up 7 HOMERS in less than 20 IP over two plus months. That's something Arnie Munoz and Charlie Haeger might struggle to do if they tried. I lost count of how many walk-off or game "losing" homers Linebrink and Dotel accounted for. His ERA went from 2.85 to 3.76 during this critical time period when the SOX were dying out there in the bullpen (The DJ Carrasco Wilderness, I like to think of it as). He had 21 holds so he obviously pitched well during some close games. His August and September weren't ideal, but it does lend credence to the theory that he had not pitched very much the past several years and he may have been gassed. I think if they trade Jenks, he has to be the top candidate within to close. Linebrink is much better a set up guy, Thornton a definite wild card who had to request to sit down late in the season a couple of times because he was tired. I don't think that Jenks will ultimately be traded, but if he is, KW has had his eye on Juan Cruz forever. He could step into Dotel's role with OD getting the ninth. Or maybe KW thinks Cruz could be the guy in the ninth. I think if Jenks goes, he's definitely high on KW's wish list.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:16 AM) Dotel career save numbers...most of them prior to surgery when he had a 94-97 MPH fastball with the Astros and A's. 83 saves 36 blown saves Conversion rate=69.7% I don't expect anything higher than 70% out of Dotel, not after the way he pitched last season for us in many critical situations. Very misleading considering he's been a set-up guy most of his career. If you want to look at it that way Thornton has 5 career saves and 16 blown. I think he'd be a good bet to convert more than 25%. Linebrink has 5 career saves and 29 blown. Dotel was a primary closer for really 1+ season after his phenomenal run as a Houston set-up guy and converted about 80%, and his ERA with Oakland was higher than it was with the White Sox last year. We don't know the circumstances of his appearances so it would be hard to judge exactly what to expect, but to say his career rate is 69.7% and say he's lost a lot of his fastball, so expect worse is wrong. Its amazing how a guy with a .208 BAA averaging 12.36 k/9 innings gets so much grief. Granted he had several bad outings, but he must of been pretty good sometimes.

From the Tribune, which coincidentally is owned by a guy with a stake in the White Sox: Hyped by his agent as having walked away from a chance to become "the Babe Ruth of Cuba," 19-year-old third baseman Dayan Viciedo is as much a project as a high-level prospect. Viciedo, a free agent who is being pursued by the White Sox and other organizations, was an all-star at 16 in Cuba's highest level, the Serie Nacional, but had gained weight and reportedly gone backward before defecting to the United States last May. He has light-tower power and a strong arm, but his tools are raw and his commitment was questioned during his last two seasons in Cuba. Peter Bjarkman, an expert on Cuban baseball, has described Viciedo as an underachiever with a poor work ethic. Texas Rangers broadcaster Eric Nadel, who travels regularly to Cuba, says Viciedo was "supposed to be the next Omar Linares when he was 14 or 15, but nobody would make that sort of comparison anymore or even close to it." Nadel says Viciedo was not among Cuba's top third basemen when he defected. The White Sox are considered a front-runner to sign Viciedo because they have Cubans Alexei Ramirez and Jose Contreras on the roster. Those two and Viciedo are represented by agent Jaime Torres. If the Sox sign him, Viciedo almost certainly will need time to develop in the farm system. Baseball America compares him to San Francisco Giants prospect Angel Villalona, an 18-year-old first baseman from the Dominican Republic who played in the low Class A South Atlantic League last season. History encourages the Sox to see Viciedo's upside. Ramirez was widely criticized after he signed with the Sox last year, especially regarding his fielding, but he is a rookie-of-the-year candidate after a season in which he hit .290 with 21 home runs while making spectacular plays at second base. Sounds a lot more like a project than Crede's immediate replacement.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 03:18 PM) Yea but this is pretty much what was said about Alexei too. But Alexei is 26 years old. Its a huge difference.

Signing this guy is a good idea obviously. I think the White Sox with theor Torres relationship and Contreras and Ramirez being part of the team, probably have an advantage signing him, unless he's a guy who has dreamed about being part of another organization his whole life. I just think believing a 19 year old who has lived in Cuba for most of his life, is going to be able to adapt to the US and play in the major leagues and contribute, is asking a bit much. I think he's more like a 2011/2012 investment than a 2009 and consider it a bonus if he's able to contribute sooner.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 02:36 PM) OM god. I will not laugh but I will scream. Dotel?? Unhittable? Yes Dotel should be used one inning max, but he will be one of the worst closers in the league. He was quite hittable. Jenks had a BAA of .230 averaging 5.5 k per 9 innings Dotel had a BAA of .208 averaging 12.3 k per 9 innings. He was far from quite hittable most of the time.

QUOTE (shipps @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 11:14 AM) Alexei is not on the list so the list needs to be reviewed for others that might be missing.It looks like a list of minor leaguers who were probably projected to be just that. According to Cubanball.com everyone who has played in MLB since 2005 is on that list except for the guys that made their debuts in 2008; Alexei Ramírez Alberto Castillo Yoslan Herrera Francisley Bueno Juan Miranda The post was in reference to the post that inferred almost every Cuban player is successful in the US. It isn't true. Ramirez is more the exception than the rule. Its not to rule this other kid out, I have never seen him, but the opinions of those who have seem pretty mixed, which isn't all that unusual for a 19 year old. It would really be a longshot he makes a MLB impact in 2009.

QUOTE (shipps @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 08:02 AM) Give me all the Cubans you got.What Cubans that have made it over here have failed?I know there isnt alot to judge on but Iam pretty convinced they know how to play baseball and get everything they have out of their natural ability better than most American born players. Here's a list of Cubans from 2005 from baseball-fever. In fact, Cubano may have made the list. There aren't many impact players on it. Cuban Players in MLB or Minor Leagues Danys Baez Pitcher Devil Rays Livan Hernandez Pitcher Nationals Orlando Hernandez Pitcher White Sox Jose Contreras Pitcher White Sox Alain Soler Pitcher Mets Yuniesky Betancourt SS/2B Mariners Kendry Morales 1B/3B/Outfielder Angels Brayan Pena C Braves Michel Hernandez C Cardinals Ariel Prieto Pitcher Marlins Jorge Toca 1b White sox Michael Tejera Pitcher Rangers Juan Diaz 1B Cardinals Vladimir Nunez Pitcher Indians Raul Valdez Pitcher Cubs Alex Sanchez Outfielder Giants Eddy Oropeza Pitcher Orioles Juan Muniz Outfielder Marlins Yobal Duenas 2B/3B Yankees Arian Cruz Pitcher Reds Hansel Izquierdo Pitcher Pirates Maikel Jova Outfielder Blue Jays Joel Perez Outfielder Yankees Maique Quintero Pitcher Nationals Gary Galvez Pitcher Red Sox Yunel Escobar SS/3B Braves Saydel Beltran Pitcher Yankees Mael Rodriguez Pitcher Diamondbacks Jose Cordero Pitcher Twins Rafael Galvizo Pitcher Marlins Roberto Sotolongo Pitcher Cubs Miguel Perez Pitcher Mets William Plaza Catcher Yankees In other countries waiting legal papers and holding tryouts: Dominican Republic Francisley Bueno Pitcher Osbeck Castillo Pitcher Juan Miguel Miranda Outfielder Ayalen Ortiz Outfielder Donell Linares Infielder Costa Rica/Nicaragua Michel Abreu 1B Barbaro Canizares Outfielder/1B/C Mikel Neninger Pitcher Yosandry Ibanez Pitcher Amaury Sanit Pitcher USA Amaury Casanas Outfielder Hassan Pena Pitcher Reinier Bermudez Pitcher __________________ Obviously, both Livan and El Duque, Escobar with the Braves, Contreras, have made big impacts. Betancourt has been decent not a whirlwind. More misses than hits from that 2005 list.