Dick Allen

If Eckstein would have accepted the contract he signed back when the free agent period began, Uribe would have been let go, and Garland would still probably be here or Eckstein would be a second baseman.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 05:03 PM) We dont know that. Neither one of them came forward in the report to help out, and neither one accepted supplies from 2 major dealers. The good part is that Thome was in Cle while juicing was going on, so probably he didnt do it. Kong was on the dodgers where there was obviously SOME juicing taking place, but he didnt really turn into a good player until he was on the SOX. I agree. Just because you're not outed in the report doesn't mean you're clean. If it did McGwire and Sosa

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) Wow. Just took a moment to look at Roger Clemens's 1998 stats, which is the year that the Mitchell Report alleges he started using. The Splits are freaking remarkable. People still b**** about the White Sox not signing him in 1997. His last 4 seasons in Boston he was 40-39. That guy was a good pitcher but not a HOFer at that point. He's a fake.

Since Sammy Sosa isn't on the list does this mean he's clean. Or does that apply only to those who played for the White Sox when they won it all?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 12:52 PM) I think the Canseco one was clearly a mistake. Schoenweis, I don't know. But we really should make sure to insert a question about that at Soxfest. An answer to that question is something we should get...what did they know about that. Personally I think use was so widespread, every team looked the other way. It would be a great question at Soxfest. I doubt you would get a good answer .

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 12:40 PM) Well, certain clubs like the Cubs and Cardinals are more difficult to discuss, because they are owned by multi-billion dollar corporations. So insert whomever takes on the role of the owner in those cases. My guess is it would be Team President. Do you believe Andy McPhail had no idea Sammy Sosa was doing roids when he suddenly began hitting 60+ home runs in successive seasons? Come on... What do you think was going on with the White Sox when they signed Canseco? Clearly they has to know what he was on. Schoenweiss had stuff delivered to the clubhouse too. Are JR and KW just as guilty as everyone else?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 10:43 AM) So now you are claiming he is not intelligent at all? Do you not believe he is articulate? Do you honestly believe JR hired him, as opposed to all the other former WS players, because he did not find him intelligent? I'm not going to go so far as to claim he is some sort of "genius," but he certainly appears to be far more intelligent than the average "jock" who attends a university on an athletic scholarship. Additionally, he's spent 26 seasons in the baseball industry. How many have all of us spent? I doubt the entire collection of posters on this forum combined have spent 26 seasons in the baseball industry. Again, I am not trying to stifle criticism or commentary. But to claim he is "not smart" is absolutely inaccurate. Just don't refer to him as "the Stanford guy" as evidence of immense intelligence. Maybe if he received a degree you may have a point.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) Stanford is not UNLV. Even the athletes that go there are going to be non-stupid. Its an elite school, and even a ballplayer going there will have to be above average academically. Just about every division 1 program in basketball and football has more than their fare share of not to bright guys no matter what the academic reputation of the institution.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:38 AM) Here we go again.... I really don't mind the second guessing and the criticism, but the "Kenny is stupid" nonsense is really ridiculous. Yeah, the Stanford guy that played the game, was director of the farm system, and now GM of several years is just plain "stupid." But we the message board posters, who have no clue what actually goes on other than what we read in the media are the "intelligent" ones. How absolutely ignorant. As for Fields, Kenny will not trade him unless he gets a very significant piece in return. While he's shown he will trade anyone for what he feels is the right piece, he isn't going to deal away Fields, whom he views as a future all-star, for a marginal upgrade in Crisp. Sure, Fields was available for MCab. He would be available for a frontline pitcher. But he's not going to be available for Coco Crisp. We all know how badly Kenny wanted Scott Linebrink over the past two seasons. The Padres demanded Fields in return. The deal wasn't made. So I think it's clear it's not going to be made for Crisp. Please don't use Kenny going to Stanford as evidence he is smart. He went to play sports. He didn't graduate and I think was only there for a year or so.

So lets see, KW has a team that was 6 losses away from being the worst in baseball on the major league level. His farm system ranks next to last in baseball. He has the payroll up over $100 million, and he thinks the upgrade of Cabrera over Uribe, Quentin, Linebrink plus a CF like Crisp while taking away Garland from the rotation and putting Floyd and Danks in there for a full season will cure all that ails this team. He is arrogant I'll give him that. Probably not very smart either.

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 10:30 PM) At this point I'm leery of any spin they put out there. No offense to some around here, but many overbought into the "grinder" garbage that came out in 06 and 07. I wonder if they will go back to that well once more There will be plenty of grinderness on the 2008 roster. KW called Quentin a grinder.

Andy Gonzalez has been non tendered. KW is trying to get some positive pub. I don't know why they didn't remove him from the 40 earlier. Maybe a trade is near.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 06:15 PM) It's disappointing that the Sox still have those holes in the OF, but I'm not super-upset about them not paying $90 million for Hunter or $50+ million for good-but-not-great players like Rowand or Fukudome. I'm more concerned about how Contreras and Floyd will pitch next year. The question is who will they get to play the OF in the future? It doesn't look like prices are going to come down anytime soon.

It will all be worth it if Roger Clemens makes the list.

I think there will be a lot of pitchers on the list.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 05:39 AM) Whether or not Danks and Floyd can be #1-3 starters is besides the point going into 2008. They need to be effective in the 4th and 5th spots. KW's "hype" is another man's confidence booster. Danks and Floyd can read KW's and Ozzie's comments about not worrying about the starting pitching and continue working out getting ready for the season. If both Danks and Floyd "trust their stuff" ie not nibbling, attacking hitters, not walking guys, they should be fine. My only concern is if they tire late in the year after racking up innings in the bigs. Yet Gio should be ready by late 2008 to come up if needed. Gio's not a bad backup plan. Not to mention Egbert or Broadway as 2nd or 3rd choices. I fail to seehow something that comes out of KW's mouth in December is going to help Floyd's and Danks' performance beginning next April. KW had the same rah rah stuff about the bullpen last year. He said the same things about Floyd and Danks last year, look what happened.

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 05:27 PM) Wow this is great. With all of Kenny Wannestedt's talk after the embarassing, pathetic 2006 season about being pissed off and going after the big fish, he not only doesn't come up with a medium fish, he doesn't come up with A fish. Had he gone after Rowand right away as a cheaper option (leave the Rowand arguments on other threads, I'm just saying) and not put all is eggs in Torii's basket only to be sniped by the Angels, he probably wouldn't that same egg all over his face now and helped drive Rowand's price up in the meantime. Oh, did I say Rowand? Don't worry: he won't be coming back now. Ever. Why bring back a guy from 2005--you do remember that year, don't you?--when instead you can bring back 2007 for a sequel: Corpseball II: No-Fundamentals Boogaloo. Mmm mmm. I can hardly wait. Fukudome? HAHAHHA. Yeah we were never even CONSIDERED by that guy because a) he could probably smell the stink over there and B) unlike us, the Cubs have a chance in 2008. We did, however, get a nice rental in Cabrera, who should have absolutely zero impact seeing that he's surrounded by the same aging, lumbering, station-to-station team that floundered through 2007, setting new lows and I believe having the worst batting average in the conference AT LEAST. Oh, but the good news doesn't stop there! To get our rental, we traded away one of our proven starting pitchers, who's now probably going to have a career year and remember once again what it was like to be something we won't be for years: a contender. Ho, ho, ho! Merrrry Christmas Sox fans! And to prove that he's on the ball and not in dreamland, he publicly stated that the Tigers, after their mega-trade, are merely now able to compete with us--LOL--when the reality is they're going to make us their prison b**** for all of 2008. And a Happy New Year! Usually when something's broke, you fix it. What you don't do is give it a new paint job and shove it right back in front of us and expect to be applauded. I've seen this movie before. In 2nd half of 2006. In all of 2007. Nobody asked for a 2008 sequel. The biggest slap is KW bettered the Cubs offer but still was rejected.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 04:31 PM) Would one of those guys alone get a deal done for Hamilton or are we talking about a ridiculous package. I'd consider dealing Hamilton for one very good prospect but I don't know if I'd start going crazy packaging people. I'd prefer to put up an offer of one of the starting pitching prospects (preferably one not name Gio/Danks but I'd probably give up Gio before Danks) as well as Sweeney or Anderson. I know talent for talent wise it isn't a great deal from the Reds side of things but I just can't see giving up a ton of talent for a guy with that type of checkered past. However, I would be incredibly excited if the club picked Hamilton up since he is a super talented player. I agree it would be a huge risk. Not to be insensitive, and kudos to him for getting clean, but a lot more addicts fall off the wagon than stay on. One fall and he's probably done.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 05:12 PM) Where did you hear that? Suntimes.com. According to his agent.

Its now being reported the Sox actually bid higher than the Cubs for Fukudome.

Jose Canseco

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:32 PM) But, here's the one part of that point. Teams like the White Sox, the Cardinals, and even the Red Sox are winning series now not because they try to fix all their holes through FA, but because they've made a number of smart moves that sneak around guys like Rowand who go for top dollar off of a career year. The Red Sox have picked up guys like Ortiz, Lowell, and Beckett and signed them to affordable deals well before they hit FA, and they've plugged in a few intelligently developed pieces like the rookies we saw this year. The Cards struck gold with some pitchers no one would come close to. The White Sox got a bunch of guys in at well below market price due to injuries, attitude, or Kaz Matsui. If the White Sox signed rowand, it might have increased our chances of making the playoffs this year by 1-2%. Even with Rowand, we'd still need an awful lot of other stuff to go right. That's, quite simply, why I really dislike the idea of trying to fix last year's debacle through FA. Play the kids, and at least see if you get lucky. If you do, then at worst you've got cheap talent or trade bait, and if you don't, then you see which holes you still need to fill. You make a great point. It just doesn't fit with KW's win now approach. The White Sox don't like to pay full price. It can be argued the only one who is getting it now would be Linebrink and they have a $100 million payroll and still stink.

I think Dye and Buerhle may be the last "hometown discounts" KW will ever get done.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 02:11 PM) Serious question here... because so many people seem to have this opinion, would you all rather return to the Ron Schuler years where we'd maybe make one decent trade a winter, but you could pretty much be assured that we wouldn't be after any major players? I know the knock on Kenny is all of the sudden is that he is "missing" on all of the players, but the fact that he is chasing them, even when the odds are against him in all of these cases just tells me he is willing to try to do whatever it takes to try to improve. Think about it. Torii Hunter was supposedly going to get blown away from this huge offer from Texas. You all heard the impression Kenny made on Hunter, and how close he was to coming here. Miguel Cabrera was supposedly going to the Angels. In steps Kenny, and he was leading the race, until Florida changed the terms and insisted we take on Dontrelle Willis. Fukudome was supposedly only going to consider the Cubs, yet Kenny goes out and matches the Cubs offer, only to fail because the guy wanted to pad his own ego with the #1 and having to play RF, plus being the #1 Japanese player on the northside. What do these all have in common? Kenny fought for all three of the guys dispite the odds. A guy like Ron Schuler would have never been heard from on any of these stages. He would have been happy to plug in some rookies, and some type b/c free agents, and move on having no expecations of anything for the next season. Its insane to hold someone's work ethic against them. Its almost like people would be happier if we weren't ever mentioned at all in connection with players. Give me the guy going for the gold ring, instead of the guy who is content to see how long he can go around on the merri-go-round. KW has never signed a big time full priced free agent from another team. If the standard is Schueler, we obviously don't expect much. KW's problem has never been effort, but effort means little at this stage, results matter. KW needs to have a plan that actually has a good chance of occurring. Hunter's praise, while nice, matters little. He praised just about everyone and took the Angels money. Fukudome was going to the Cubs. Nice effort, but maybe that's what they want you to think. He promised a dynamic offense. The offseason isn't over yet. If he doesn't deliver, something needs to be done.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 12:05 PM) Fair enough...I was just rehashing what the brilliant BRUCE! Levine said... I know. Bruce likes to make things a little dramatic.