Dick Allen

BA has compared the Cuban league to short season A ball. I don't know how much money they gave the guy, but I hope he does well. I think it would be silly to think he'll do much in the AL in 2008. Its a huge adjustment. Not just a higher level of play but off the field as well.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 04:09 PM) Sorry on the percentages thing, I was at work and wasnt really thinking. I was thinking 2x 40= 80 therefore 200%, but that is in fact 100%. So my statement should have read, the Sox increased payroll almost 100%. And thats not really accurate either because 40/65= 61%. It still is a drastic increase, I just should have stopped to think. Its drastic, but I read yesterday where one exec believes in 2 years the average payroll will be $100 million. Its going to cost a mint to go to games.

Andy Gonzalez actually led off for the White Sox. Its cherry picking but take away 4 games he hit .138.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 03:17 PM) Actually, I was mistaken. Contreras actually had THREE years left on his contract, as the extension he signed in April of 06' covered the years 07'-09'. So the return for Garcia was for a guy who had pitched well to finish the 06' season (7-4, 4.12 ERA post ASB, including two near no-hitters) with 1 year and $10 million left, and had been durable for his entire career, and was at age of 30. The return on Contreras would have been for a guy who pitched horribly during the second half of 06' (4-9 with a 5.40 ERA post ASB), had $30 million left on his contract, was listed as 35, but who most seem to think is at least 3-5 years older, with an erratic career history in the mlb. Now I love Jose probably more than anyone on this site (he was in my avatar until I recently changed it to Gio), but it's extremely difficult for me to believe, considering everything I have posted, as well as everything coming out in the press at the time, that Jose was going to bring in some haul for us. Sure, he was our opening day starter in 07', but that means absolutely nothing regarding his trade value. Kenny Rogers has been "the ace" of the staff for the Tigers previously. Do you seriously believe he has more value in trade than Justin Verlander or Jeremy Bonderman? Contreras vs. Garcia isn't anywhere close to Rogers vs. Bonderman or Verlander. That is ridiculous. Contreras was signed for 3 years at less money than the Sox gave Vazquez after Vazquez had a worse season than Contreras in 2007. I'm just going to disagree with you and say once and for all I believe the White Sox would have received at least 2 top prospects for Contreras last winter. You don't think so, and that's fine. I'm sure its not the last time we will disagree, and I'm sure you'll even be correct once in a while.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 02:51 PM) Your premise, Dick, is based on the idea that I don't believe Contreras' contract, presently, is bad. Yet, as you so thankfully have provided for me, I clearly said it was a bad contract. Qualifying it as "not the worst thing that ever happened" doesn't exactly prove your point. Secondly, ask anyone who knows anything about pitching this question: "How important are one's legs and back to pitching effectively?" Thirdly, part of the reason Garcia got back Gio was because he only had 1 year left, not two, like Contreras. Additionally, Garcia pitched very well down the stretch in 06', which probably made the Phillies feel a hell of a lot better about Garcia's chances than Contreras', especially given Garcia's durability history. I honestly think you're crazy, or suffering through some sort of revisionist history if you believe Jose was significantly more valuable than Garcia as of last offseason. My point was a muscle pull in the legs or back is far less threatening than arm problems. Contreras would have netted the Sox at least 2 top prospects last offseason. He had a couple more years on his contract. That's adds value. A contract that you just said isn't the worst thing even after an awful 2007. He wasn't throwing 85. He wasn't woefully out of shape. Contreras came into 2007 as the White Sox ace. You're the one with the problem in history. Based on your criteria, wouldn't Buerhle be a HUGE question mark in 2008? His monthly ERAs in August and September were over 5.00, and he's signed for more than 1 year, in fact 4, at $4 million more per, so based on your logic, he's probably not worth anything.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 02:34 PM) Vazquez has massively increased his value. Paulie's remains steady. If anything, Buehrle value (or value to us) has increased as a result of the contract he signed. Garland is gone, but it's not as though "he vanished like a fart in the wind." We have Cabrera here now, who can be dealt as well. And Contreras was a huge question LAST offseason. How are you forgetting that minor detail after his 06' second half? He had some leg and back problems, not as nasty as arm problems. Garcia got Gio back. Contreras would have brought back more, and saved the Sox about $30 million. I would hold on to Contreras now, unless someone wants to pick up all of his contract. I think he will bounce back and be decent. Then I would trade him. Considering this was your quote in another thread 2 days ago until Contreras' rapid decline this season, we had not one bad contract. Now, we have one. And it's not the worst thing that's ever happened You must not have thought his 2006 was all that bad, until you wanted to argue my beliefs "in hindsight".

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 02:21 PM) You don't think we tried to move him before last season? We could still have the money to play with- all we have to do is trade those players now. If anything, some of their value is greater now because of the market prices for current FA's or recent FA's. Garland is gone. Contreras is a huge question. Buerhle is going nowhere. They can trade Vazquez, and probably should.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 02:08 PM) Contreras would not have netted a "huge" package last offseason. He was terrible and injured the second half of 06', and the correct play was either to hold onto him and hope he rebounded, or to deal him just to ditch his salary. As he was in trade rumors all offseason, it's probably safe to assume Kenny tested those waters with several GM's. As for Garland, apparently the best package offered for him was Tavares, Hirsh, and Buccholtz from the Astros, and many here were disgusted by that near-deal. Say what you'd like about the Vazquez deal, but at the time, it was a move the majority of experts praised, and the extension given to him last season is very reasonable in this market, especially considering his performance last season. If you want to talk about netting a "huge" package, KW could probably get back more than he gave away to get Javy at this particular moment. It's very easy to look at this with such a broad view. But your arguments for what you would have done differently don't really appear that they would have have changed the result. It wouldn't have change the result of 2007, but as I said, I thought they should take a step back. The White Sox would have a lot more money to play with. I think you're mistaken if you don't think Contreras wouldn't have netted a big return last winter.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:49 PM) See, here we are with the hindsight guy. You're telling me that in the offseason of 06', you were: 1) Against the extension he gave Garland (I actually was, but that's because of the silly way it was structured); 2) Against the extension he gave Contreras; 3) Against the deal he gave Konerko; 4) Against the deal he gave Pierzynski; And prior to last season, you were: 5) Against the extension given to Vazquez (this you may have been, and it is actually the move that looks best now); During the middle of the 07' season, you were: 6) Against the extension given to Buehrle; and 7) Against the extension given to Dye (I didn't like it, personally) And this offseason, you were/are: 8) Against the extension given to Pierzynski? I don't remember your posts much from before maybe before this last season, so I don't recall. But I vividly remember the VAST majority of posters VERY happy with most of those extensions, so much so that there were psuedo "Chuck Norris" threads on the forum with KW substituted for Chuck.... Actually after 2005 I suggested trading Politte, which was laughed at because you don't trade guys with his numbers. I was fine with Contreras, Garland and Buerhle's extensions, although I did suggest last off season trading 3 starters for prospects, stepping back a little bit in 2007 and being in good position to strike it big in 2008. Garland and Contreras would have netted huge packages last offseason. I was against the Vazquez acquisition from the beginning. That's a ton of money right there, and that's also a cheap CF. I am AJP's biggest fan. People forget KW the "Stanford guy" wanted no part of him. He wanted Jason Kendall to catch in 2005. I'm not always right, I'm wrong a lot, as is everyone which makes baseball a great game. But KW brought back a team that was bad the second half of 2006 saying they won 90 games and couldn't play worse. Well, he was wrong. If he wants 2008 to be different, he needs to move some of the "names" on his roster, or up the payroll a ton.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:47 PM) Actually, his 1 year term expired on 12/7. He was the greatest President Soxtalk ever had.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:35 PM) Easy on my guy, shack. He and I share similar views, so perhaps I have an affinity for him and subsequent bias, but he's hardly Jay Mariotti. Thank you, Mr. President.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:37 PM) Hmm, I wonder what he thinks of Hawk? Hawk pisses me off a lot, but I do love him.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:33 PM) You want to talk about "spin"? Look at your posts in regards to KW. You're impossible to satisfy. You're the ultimate "in hindsight" guy. You're always nitpicking everything. This team won the World Series in 05'. In 06', it won 90 games. Last year sucked. We ALL know that. But that doesn't mean that the 08' team immediately starts out as a 72-win capable team as currently constructed. There are such things in a season as momentum, cummulative affects, bad-luck, injury, that come together to achieve results which are not necessarily the sum of their parts. I'll be the first to admit it happened in 05' when we won. And it certainly happened last year when we stunk. But just as that 05' team was not 99-win strong in talent, the 07' team was not 90-loss in talent. The whole point is that Kenny felt Hunter for 5/75 was a risk worth taking, but not at 5/90. Why is that difficult to understand? And yes, some of the players that were signed before HAVE strangled the team a bit financially, but that's an amazingly relative situation. Your team CAN be strangled a bit financially if your veterans perform as they ought to. Last year, they did not. But that does not mean they will not again this year. What you're arguing is almost like you do not want Kenny to commit the necessary resources to maximize the team's chances for success. Had we had stacks and stacks of leftover $ with which to spend on other players, you'd be sitting here claiming Kenny is an idiot for not compiling the best team possible. You're just impossible to please. Ever. I actually think sometimes you are Jay Mariotti. First off calling me Jay Mariotti is a personal attack and should get you a lifetime ban. Secondly, if you have ever read my posts, I'm hardly a "hindsight" guy. Thirdly the "90 win team" of 2006 was a mirage. They were awesome the first half, and awful the second. 2007 was an extension of the second half of 2006. Bad hitting, a horrible bullpen. That is now a season and a half of bad baseball. Thinking its just some sort of "perfect storm" is for cowards and losers as coach Ditka likes to say. KW's point wasn't 5/75 vs. 5/90. Hunter never even gave the White Sox a chance to match it. It was the 75 million. People expect KW to spend that now, and he's basically letting people know its not there. KW needs to realize the reason why he doesn't have stacks and stacks of money to spend on improving his team, is because KW spent stacks and stacks of money locking in a bad team for a few years.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:21 PM) Again, finance doesn't work the way you seem to see it. He both does, and does not, have that money to play with. What he has is license to plow back earnings into player personnel, but also to do so on a forward-looking basis. He can spend a lot on the right player if there is payoff in that. He doesn't just have some stack of money to blow. JR has always said that the Sox are a basically break-even operation, and that is still true. Therefore, yes there are limits to spending, but those limits can be stretched in return for later returns. That does NOT mean that money for future years can simply go out the door. I think I know how finance works. KW is also using the "can't spend $1 if you only have $.50" talk. Considering White Sox attendance figures recently, considering they are raising ticket prices, who is responsible for having a team with as many holes as the White Sox and doesn't have the finances to throw a little money at it? Its funny KW would chastise people like he has all the answers. 1 playoff appearance in 7 years.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:13 PM) No... he was willing to pay $15M a year for 4 or 5 years, not $18M a year for 5. This is what he was getting at - its easy to say "spend every dime" when you don't see what that does to the organization. Its counterproductive at some point - the only question is, where is that point? He's talking about the $75 million which is $15 million a year. People are assuming that's what he has to play with now, and he's saying it isn't. He's the guy that always says every dime that comes it goes out. I have no problem with the White Sox payroll, I do have a problem with the way KW spins it and then goes into the "if I did what the public wanted" garbage. He has an older team with a $108 million payroll that came pretty darn close to being the worst team in baseball last year. Its time he got off the high horse.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:03 PM) Did you just compare the contracts of Dye, Konerko and Vaz, all of which were very good deals, to the Hunter lottery winner? And then you say KW is spinning? That is his whole point. I wanted Hunter too, but at that contract, you essentially strangle the organization financially for years. And whether people want to acknowledge it or not, that $75M wasn't some giant stack of cash sitting in a corner with Hunter's jersey on top. Its an investment with some expected return to help pay for itself. So on one hand he was willing to strangle the team for years to get Hunter, but since he didn't accept, the contracts he's already doled out have strangled the team from adding payroll. Then he goes into the "fans want instant gratification and don't look at the big picture talk" when he traded a cheap young CF and 2 decent pitchers for what would be an expensive 5th starter in 2006. Once again, I ask which players did the fans clamour to have and complained about not getting which enable KW to bring back most of an aging 90 loss $108 million payroll team?

Who is he talking about that the fans wanted him to throw money at? Why would it have been OK to break the budget with Torii Hunter but not with Buerhle, Contreras, Dye,Konerko, Vazquez et al? Spin, spin, spin. I'm sick of spin. Its funny he's criticizing the fans for looking "at today only", but wouldn't that have been what he was doing with Hunter? Doesn't he always pop off about winning now? Wasn't it KW who wanted to throw money at Bartolo Colon? Didn't he try to throw a lot of money at Magglio? He is so full of s*** its ridiculous.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 05:14 PM) Prediction: KW will be among the highest bidders but Prior states that he would rather sign with the Expos. Yeah, he wants to be the first pitcher in team history to do the towel drill. Cooper had a couple pitchers on it last year.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 05:11 PM) I'm a lot of things. I think that's good. Isn't it?

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 05:07 PM) With your neighbor. How did you know? You're Batman.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 05:05 PM) With alcohol. And hookers.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 03:50 PM) And I, for one, am damn glad it's not your job if you would have paid 18-20 mil per year for a player like Torii Hunter. That is the only way that deal would have been completed. Miguel Cabrera? Hell, what could you have done? Nothing! Isn't KW responsible for the current mess. The mess that's so bad he has to add guys like Hunter and MCabrera to have a shot?

QUOTE(BearSox @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 03:46 PM) think to yourself, what is more important... a no. 3 starter who was entering his prime, or a 33 year old shortstop coming off what could be considered a career year? Now, they were both free agents at the end of the season, but I still believe we could have gotten a couple pretty good prospects for Garland rather then someone who we will have for a last place season. This move was, at best, a lateral move... I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Garland have his best season since 05 and Cabrera go back to his career norms of a .270 average and an OPS of 720. I don't mind the trade as long as they have something better than Floyd and Danks as the guys going to fill his innings. I agree with you, chances are Cabrera will step back at least a little next year. Garland isn't much better than average, but just imagine how much worse the bullpen will be if they have to pitch 50 or 60 more innings.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) At least if Cabrera leaves in FA, we'll get more compensation for him then we would have with Garland. As for the DLS + Gio + Shelby for Bowden and Crisp rumored by Fathom, ummm there's absolutely no way I make that deal. DLS should be untouchable, unless I'm getting a Jay Bruce. White Sox fans should get off the draft pick compensation as the way to re-build the minors. You wind up having to pay these draft picks over $1 million each and most don't pan out. Its better to trade players of value for young guys already on their way to making it, showing they can be successful, with their bonuses already paid.

Not that it means it isn't true, but it was the poster who posted this very first post on that board.