Dick Allen

QUOTE(WCSox @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 10:38 PM) Um, well, players aren't payed per playoff game. And the last time that I checked, A-Rod's current contract is about five times that of Konerko's, so I'm not really sure what your point is. (1) Before the strawman arguments get out of hand, my point was that A-Rod was a "liability" in the '05 and '06 post-seasons only. That wasn't meant as a general statement. (2) The Yankees didn't need A-Rod to make the playoffs in 2005 or 2006. He was supposed to put them over the hump (or at least help them get past the ALDS) and he failed to deliver. I'm not saying that he's supposed to hit .400 and drive in three or four runs each game, but 30 and 130 points below the Mendoza line in consecutive playoff series completely is unacceptable for ANY marquee player, especially the supposed "best player in the game." (3) I understand what you're saying with the "small sample size" comment, but you have to understand that elite pro athletes (especially those that make $25 million/year) are EXPECTED to deliver in the "small sample size" known as the playoffs. Not every elite player is expected to play off-the-charts well in every playoff series, but you have to deliver at least decent results in the big games. Since being traded to the Yankees, A-Rod has hit over .270 in ONE of five playoff series... and he's hit below .135 in TWO of them. And all four of those teams would've made the playoffs without him. I give him credit for having some good post-seasons in Seattle where he was in Griffey and Edgar's shadows, but he wasn't the same after signing that blockbuster contract and playing in the high-stress environment of the Bronx. Those two factors raised expectations significantly and I'm not sure that he was able to deal with the pressure effectively. That doesn't mean that he couldn't have post-season success in Chicago but, again, one has to wonder if he's going to have trouble again being "The Man" and delivering in the post-season after his next $200+ million contract. Um well, players do get paid for the playoffs. They get paid from a pool of money which gets divided into shares. The players vote who gets what kind of share. Timo and Konerko each got paid exactly the same for the 2005 playoffs. They even each get paid a little more for winning the division. Obviously, ARod would be expected to perform well, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. You take a couple of years of ARod in the playoffs and use those as gospel. But he has hit .280 in the postseason. If he's so awful and a choker, the guy is playing on the biggest stage, a stage where that the ace of the 2005 world champions couldn't handle, winning 2 MVPs with them, under the scrutiny of the largest contract by far of all time, and he plays well enough to opt out and get an even bigger deal. He's no choker. Everyone has tough postseasons. Even Babe Ruth hit .118 in the 1922 WS. Mickey Mantle hit below .200 3 WS in a row. You cherry-picked the .270 because he hit .267 this year, correct? He's a .280 career playoff hitter. If a team had the money to pay him and not ruin the rest of their team, it would be crazy to chose not to add him based on a couple of postseason series.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 06:49 PM) Question for everyone...do you consider Barry Bonds to be a liability in the playoffs? Obviously not if he is healthy. His struggles were notorious his first 4 or 5 playoff appearances, although he did draw some walks. The year they went to the WS he hit a ton of homers IIRC. I think he would be walked a ton if he ever is in the playoffs again.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 06:20 PM) Liabilities! Haven't you heard -- Walter Payton never scored a touchdown in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning has only won one Super Bowl -- and he had to go up against Rex Grossman to do it! Notice the similarities between Payton and Peyton? And those guys you cite? They're all liabilities! How many times did Elway lose the Super Bowl. He couldn't handle the pressure. There's no doubt ARod had a couple of horrible postseasons. But to even think he can't handle pressure is absurd. For 7 seasons the guy has had more pressure on him than anyone, and he will have 3 MVPs? Not bad.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 06:03 PM) Paul Konerko doesn't make $25 million a year. I don't know about you, but I expect Boston-era Manny Ramirez playoff numbers for $200+ million guaranteed. If Konerko and ARod were teammates, their playoff pay would be the same. The point I was making is the sample sizes are too small to base a guy as someone who can't handle it on 1 or 2 postseasons, especially if he had already put up pretty decent numbers under the same circumstances 3 or 4 other times.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 06:02 PM) Uh, yeah, because a failure is much better than a liability. Good one! Since you're incapable of understanding them, I don't bother anymore. I am, but you can't hit 30 and 170 points below the freaking Mendoza line in the playoffs in consecutive years if you're making $20+ million a year. Some people have a difficult time performing in pressure situations. Is A-Rod one of those people? I'm not sure at this point and I wouldn't want to spend $300 million to find out. He played in NY and will win another MVP this season. Frank Thomas, the guy everyone says is the best hitter in White Sox history has 2 playoff series with 0 hits. Konerko got 0 hits in 2000. Barry Bonds struggled in the playoffs. The burden ARod has had with size of his contract, and how he's performed speak volumes. If it was the 7th game of the WS and the White Sox were down a run with the bases loaded and 2 out in the bottom of the ninth inning, I would personally love to have ARod batting. Derek Jeter is known as a huge clutch guy, even he struggled this post season batting .176. In 2001 Jeter hit .118 in the ALCS and .148 in the WS. Even Mr. October, Reggie Jackson is only about a .220 hitter in post season play. One thing is for sure, ARod, if the rest of the roster isn't compromised due to his salary, would certainly help you make the playoffs.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) A-Rod in 2005 playoffs: .133 BA A-Rod in 2006 playoffs: .071 BA I would say that those performances in the three-hole constitute a "liability." Paul Konerko came up big in 2005. He's a career .224 hitter in post season play. ARod is a career .280 hitter in the post season, and he's a liability.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) A-Rod in 2005 playoffs: .133 BA A-Rod in 2006 playoffs: .071 BA I would say that those performances in the three-hole constitute a "liability." What about his playoff performances in 1997,2000, and 2004. You seem to be cherry-picking. He's the best player in the game. Personally, I don't think the Sox can make it work financially, but if JR feels otherwise, I don't see how adding the best player in baseball, one of the best who has ever lived is really going to be a bad thing.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 03:04 PM) And I really think that the number of A-Rod jerseys being sold is somewhat exaggerated. While A-Rod may be a "star", he's not exactly embraced by fans in the same way that Jordan was. A-Rod is basically seen as a great regular-season player who doesn't get it done in the playoffs and who has a somewhat contrived personality. He's not perceived as a winner and he's not going to be the Derek Jeter of Chicago. Jordan's personality has been somewhat "contrived". As much of a winner as he was, he wasn't his first 6 years in the NBA, but still was the biggest draw in Chicago and around the league. ARod in Chicago would be huge, but the Sox pretty much will draw 2 million + now for an average team. I can't see where ARod will mean every game is sold out, but his signing would mean a significant increase. Enough to offset his salary...............I can't see it.

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 02:44 PM) I think people forget that just a little over 10 years ago Reinsdorf...after complaining loudly for years about baseball salaries...made Albert Belle the highest paid player in baseball. People's jaws dropped at the time. But we need to remember that Reinsdorf is a smart businessman. The quest for Arod would be in an attempt to win the city of Chicago. This is a battle fought over decades...last off season the Cubs spent $300 million to get themselves a 3 and out in the playoffs...and who would bet on them for next year. If Reinsdorf spends $300 million on Arod and Rowand...trades Garland for prospects?? The city would be ABUZZ. When the Cubs get sold...WGN comes with hat and wallet in hand to pay for Sox TV. Young suburban baseball fans start wearing AROD jersies. It's really a great plan. To win Chicago it could be argued that Arod is more valuable to the Sox than any team in baseball. Personally I think ARod is probably worth more to the Marlins. They have a low payroll, he's from Miami, he will draw big, and help them get a new stadium. He'll get ripped for going there, but the only team with more championships the last 10 years than the Marlins are the Yankees. Ramirez, ARod and Cabrera would be a left side that could match probably any in history.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 08:37 AM) There really isn't much substance in that article. Its kind of disappointing from Rozner. That has more a Kotex-boy feel to it, with a lot of "should"'s and not a lot of real depth. Hopefully he knows something, but it sure didn't seem like it. The one thing that I don't find makes any sense is how he came up with ARod's signing for $300 million for 10 years would get the Sox back that money 5 fold. How many more tickets can they reasonably sell? How many ARod jerseys can be sold? If paying him that much is such a great deal, how come Tom Hicks has been paying the Yankees to take his contract, which was for less, off his hands? I would love ARod on the White Sox, but financially I don't see where it works out. Pitching still is what wins. If paying him means finding cheap pitching, winning won't be part of the equation.

I posted something in the catch all thread. Rozner has excellent White Sox contacts. It indicates to me the White Sox are interested in ARod and aren't blinking at Boras' demands.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Oct 19, 2007 -> 07:56 AM) The total dollar amount is immaterial. No one goes to one of their employees and offers them a 33% paycut without it be taken as an insult. If they really wanted rid of him, they should have had the balls and fired him. Like I asked in the previous post, what would you say if your boss offered you a 33% paycut and only one year of guarenteed work? Would you take it as a pretty good offer, no matter how much money you were making? Somehow I doubt it. If the guarantee was still more than I could get if I went elsewhere, which apparently it is, while I might not be too thrilled with the paycut, I would consider it a good offer. But then again, I don't have enough in the bank to live a couple of lifetimes very comfortably, nor do I have a nice spread in Maui to go mull over my future like Torre has. I give him all the credit in the world for turning it down, but the percentage of paycut isn't relevant. He would still be far and away the highest paid person doing his job in the world. As he himself has stated several times, not winning the WS is not acceptable in the Bronx. If he made it to the WS his $5 million guarantee would jump to a $16 million guarantee. I guess my point is I wish I was in a position to be offered a contract that still made me the highest paid person in my position in the world, and still be "insulted". If LaRussa leaves STL and Torre wants to go there, would it be an insult to him if the Cardinals offer him the $2.8 mil a year for 3 years they were paying LaRussa? I really don't think the paycut was the issue. I think the 1 year make it to the WS was. If they offered him the same incentives but said it ran for 2 seasons instead of one, I think he would have taken it in a heartbeat.

Rozner's column today indicates JR is dreaming about Kobe and ARod. Rozner has some pretty good White Sox contacts. His article would indicate to me, that while they may not sign him, they definitely appear very interested, even at Boras' bloated demands.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Oct 18, 2007 -> 08:27 PM) When did I say the money was laughable on some absolute scale? Yes, $5 mil is a lot of money, etc etc etc. But the "OFFER" was a joke. The one-year, conditionality-loaded deal announces to everyone that he has no support from management. And a pay cut does indicate that someone is not as valuable as he was before. (Or that the market has changed; but with Piniella's deal it doesn't look like manager money is drying up league-wide.) He was worth $7.5 mil to the Yankees this year, unconditionally, and the best possible outcome was a WS win. Even if he accomplishes that next year, his salary will go up basically by inflation plus. Basically, I said it was laughable because, when I heard the terms of the deal, I laughed. He was obviously not going to accept that deal, it seemed to me. That's what I call a laughable offer. If any schmuck can see that the person getting the offer will refuse it, I think it's pretty funny to even make it. The Yankees should have manned up and just cut ties instead of going through this whole charade. I think there are a lot of guys who would have accepted that offer. I agree the Yankees knew he wouldn't take it, and it was a pr move if nothing else, but $5 million is still a lot more than any other manager gets and the bonuses are attainable. Its not like its Tampa Bay basing everything on making the playoffs.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Oct 18, 2007 -> 08:38 PM) I am sure if your boss offered you a 33% paycut and no job security, you'd be all over that, right? Let's see, here's $5 million guaranteed, plus we will have a team with a payroll around $220 million. If you can guide them to the playoffs, here's another $1 million. If you can guide them to the ALCS, we will give you another million, and if you take this team that will be paid almost double every other team except one to the WS we will give you another million plus guarantee you $8 million the next year, so make the WS, here's $16 million for 2 years. By the way, the most anyone else in the world will get paid to do your same job the next 2 years is $7 million total. I'm pretty sure I would take it, but I don't have Torre's bank. Job security for a 67 year old who very well may just retire anyway is laughable. Last I checked, he has no offers, and very much doubt anyone will pay him more than the Yankees offered him in 2008. This was more about pride, and probably not wanting to go through what he has to go through if the Yankees don't win every season. I commend him for turning it down, but as I stated before, the money was pretty good. More guaranteed for 1 season than the White Sox have paid Ozzie Guillen his entire managerial career.

Joe Torre, NYY $7.5 million Lou Piniella, CHC $3.5 million Bobby Cox, ATL $3 million Tony La Russa, STL $2.8 million Mike Scioscia, LAA $2 million Jim Leyland, DET $2 million Bruce Bochy, SF $1.75 million Terry Francona, BOS $1.65 million Phil Garner, HOU $1.5 million Willie Randolph, NYM $1.4 million Mike Hargrove, SEA $1.3 million Ron Gardenhire, MIN $1.25 million Ozzie Guillen, CHW $1.1 million Eric Wedge, CLE $1.025 million Jim Tracy, PIT $1 million Bob Melvin, ARI $875,000 Buddy Bell, KC $825,000 Ned Yost, MIL $825,000 Clint Hurdle, COL $800,000 Charlie Manuel, PHI $800,000 Jerry Narron, CIN $600,000 Grady Little, LAD $600,000 Sam Perlozzo, BAL $600,000 Ron Washington, TEX $600,000 Joe Maddon, TAM $550,000 John Gibbons, TOR $500,000 Manny Acta, WAS $500,000 Bob Geren, OAK $500,000

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Oct 18, 2007 -> 06:53 PM) It's still a lot of money, but it's also a pretty decent pay cut, so I can see why with him being fed up with everything and the job scrutiny he had to go through, why he would walk away. Mattingly's the favorite, but I'm thinking they may actually go with Girardi if they want to get younger, because of the job he did with Florida and their young players. As for Torre, do people think that'll be it for him, or if say a job such as the Cardinals opens up, would he be interested in that? And also, would LaRussa be at all a candidate for the Yankees job? Wasn't the big knock on Girardi, besides yelling at the owner, his handling of young pitchers? The Yankees rotation is going young. If he blows those arms, or shoulders, or elbows out, they are in trouble.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Oct 18, 2007 -> 06:40 PM) A huge pay cut, a one-year deal to show that they have no confidence in him, and if everything goes right and they win the whole deal, a whopping 6.7% pay raise. THAT is a sham offer. It's cowardly and very laughable. It is not. Its a base salary 43% higher than the second highest managerial salary. If he makes the playoffs, which is almost a lock since he has made them every year he's been with the Yankees, his salary would be 72% higher than any other manager. If he wins 1 playoff series he would put away double what the next highest paid manager makes. If he makes it to the WS he gets 230 % of what the next highest paid manager gets, and gets $8 million vested for 2009. If that's laughable because its insulting, you need to work for Boras. I don't blame him for walking away, he wanted 2 years guaranteed and there is no doubt the Yankees knew he wouldn't take this, and considering they never bothered even negotiating a little bit, they obviously did not want him. That's granted, and for that, I give Torre all the credit in the world for telling them to buzz off. But the money wasn't laughable. He makes it to the ALCS he would have been paid more than the next 2 managers on the list combined. Interestingly, 14 MLB managers make less than $1 million a year. Ozzie gets $1.1 million.

QUOTE(knightni @ Oct 18, 2007 -> 04:41 PM) Time for the Yanks to bid farewell to Rivera/Giambi/Clemens/Mussina/ARod/Abreu/Pettitte/Posada and *gasp* rebuild and get younger. I agree. This collection wasn't winning it all. They still will have a ton of $ to play with. They better hope their young pitchers are as good as advertised or they won't be winning until they can get Santana and a few others on their roster.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Oct 18, 2007 -> 03:59 PM) The offer was laughable. It would have been better to just say outright that he couldn't come back. Better still if Torre had told Steinbrenner to f*** off, but we still have Manny for entertainment. I really don't know how laughable a guaranteed $5 million is. He still would be the highest paid manager in the game. Also an extra $1 million for each round of playoffs the Yankees win makes it $7 million if he makes the WS and $8 million, if they won it. I really don't believe his decision had much to do about money.

All the media surrounding the Tampa complex all week and nobody ever bothered to ask Torre if he still wanted the job. The paycut and 1 year commitment may have been the thing to make him say no, but I doubt it. He still would have been the highest paid manager in baseball. Even would have gotten a raise had they won it all. I think he's sick of being treated like a bag of s***.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Oct 18, 2007 -> 01:55 PM) Ok folks Lew Ford was granted free agency by the Twins. What are the odds Williams brings him in on a minor league deal or goes ahead and signs him for a year, and yes I know Ford's been bad the last two years. He's actually been bad for 3 years. He's really had only 1 good full season. Minor league contract is fine, but make him earn a roster spot.

QUOTE(SoxAce @ Oct 16, 2007 -> 09:28 PM) Pratt sounds about as gay as he looks in real life. Pratt's the man.

$600,000 seems like a lot until you realize the combination Andy Gonzalez and Nick Masset made a lot more than that this year. It is a step in the right direction, although Borchard's bonus was the biggest in MLB history for a while IIRC. That didn't work out too well. I wonder how much of an effect it had on future picks and bonuses.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Oct 15, 2007 -> 01:12 PM) .339 after the AS Break as a rookie. .361 in AAA Charlotte before his callup this year. Cangelosi's was .349 as a 23 year old rookie. Shockingly, Cangelosi had a .370 lifetime OBP. Of course he was usually platooned. He had a lifetime .319 slugging pct. This guy is probably a good comparison to Owens. A guy off the bench would be fine. A regular and you don't have a championship calibur team.