Dick Allen

It really is incredible Jim Thome has to be defended at all. He's done his job as well as anyone on the White Sox has done theirs since he's been here. I hope he hits one on the concourse tonight.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Sep 13, 2007 -> 12:13 PM) Okay, this is the last time I talk about Schuerholz unless the Braves and specifically the Braves offseason is mentioned -- but when Schuerholz was with the Royals and they were a classy, well-respected organization with a recent world title win, he wasn't particularly happy due to a change in ownership so he was chatting with friends about what franchises in baseball had a great deal of potential if only someone came in and fixed them. Atlanta was the main one they mentioned, with Texas the other, and then he spoke to the man doing the hiring who said, "s***, you're interested in leaving for Atlanta? Why? That place blows!" and he said, "I think I can turn it around." He did. Kind of cool. I sort of wish Rick Hahn would leave for Pittsburgh and make that the next powerhouse. The Pirates are a good franchise with a great history and a beautiful ballpark in a lovely city, so I hope they eventually have an owner and management that are capable and willing to win. I've just always thought that the idea of leaving a good situation for a shaky one was one of the more interesting aspects of Schuerholz' move to Atlanta. But yeah, it's nice to have Hahn around. Would suck if he or Terry Ryan wound up on the northside of Chicago, though. There's no question in my mind, JS is the best GM in the game, maybe the best ever. But I don't think he could win for a sustained period in Pittsburgh the way the game is right now. He probably could build the team to go on a little run, but once his young guys start earning money and are eligible to be FA, he's going to lose them, unlike in Atlanta. He's not going to be able to bring in Greg Maddux. The game is a lot different now. In 1990, I believe the year JS left KC, the Royals had the highest payroll in baseball. The game is so different.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 13, 2007 -> 04:06 PM) Would anyone trade the last ten years of Sox results with the Twin's results? I wouldn't. We see what he did in the free agent market the last two seasons. I'm not that impressed. So multiply those acquisitions ten fold with more money. Meh. I'm not saying KW is better, just saying I don't think he's the second coming where an organization should dump everything and follow. Perhaps if he had put together a team that won it all, then maybe . . . Obiously winning it all once trumps winning it all zero times. You do have to give the guy credit for having his team in position to win often. He did play with a shoestring budget, but money doesn't always make you even better GM, ask KW. Who knows, if the Twins spent more, maybe they draft Prior instead of Mauer. Maybe they hang on to AJP and don't get Nathan, Bonzer and Liriano. He did built it the right way, through the minor leagues. It took him a few seasons to get it going, but it was a good run after that.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2007 -> 09:26 AM) Too bad for Hahn, but good for the White Sox. He's a smart guy. He's going to wait for an opportunity that includes a legitimate chance to win. While being a GM is probably his goal, a couple years with his hands tied in Pittsburgh won't help him. He'd probably wind up getting canned and never getting another opportunity.

What's funny is people think Frank is having a good year, but Thome who has 6 more homers in 90 less ABs than Frank is "losing" power. He's also walked 12 more times.

Juan Uribe's 31 walks places him 4th on the team in that category. It is not Walker's fault the offense blows, it is definitely KW's as he apparently didn't consider the importance of being on base until recently.

Ozzie is never going to be fired by the White Sox. This extension pretty much confirms it. If he doesn't say anything too outrageous where they have to let him go and he wants to manage until JR dies, he will.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 02:09 PM) Sorry, just a slight memory mis-recollection. Compare Gavin Floyd's first 100-120 innings in the majors to Jake Westbrook's. Compare how old they were when they came up, and what their peripherals looked like. And then compare their stuff to one another's. Personally, I believe they are very similar. That's the comparison I would make, and have made for about the past month or two. Floyd's ERA is about 1.40 higher but Westbrook wasn't exactly Dwight Gooden. At that point most of Westbrook's appearances were out of the bullpen. Floyd's WHIP is higher and had allowed almost 3 times the homers. I wonder how many pitchers have as many major league innings under their belt as Floyd and have an ERA the same or higher. There can't be many. Maybe he will be good one day. I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it happens, but if the White Sox are counting on him for 2008 and saying they plan to contend,based on a couple of September starts, they are either fooling themselves or trying to fool their fans.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 02:09 PM) Sorry, just a slight memory mis-recollection. Compare Gavin Floyd's first 100-120 innings in the majors to Jake Westbrook's. Compare how old they were when they came up, and what their peripherals looked like. And then compare their stuff to one another's. Personally, I believe they are very similar. That's the comparison I would make, and have made for about the past month or two. Floyd's ERA is about 1.40 higher but Westbrook wasn't exactly Dwight Gooden. At that point most of Westbrook's appearances were out of the bullpen. Floyd's WHIP is higher and had allowed almost 3 times the homers. I wonder how many pitchers have as many major league innings under their belt as Floyd and have an ERA the same or higher. There can't be many. Maybe he will be good one day. I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it happens, but if the White Sox are counting on him for 2008 and saying they plan to contend, they are either fooling themselves or trying to fool their fans.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 01:44 PM) Gavin Floyd certainly seems like he could htrow 175+ innings next year. Lance Broadway threw 155 this year in the minors and is tacking on more in the majors. Egbert threw 160 innings last year and 155 this year. Haeger threw 150 this year and 180 last year between the minors and majors. Phillips threw 173 this year and is still going. If all you're asking about is innings eaters...on that we're loaded, which was the original question. The secondary question is...which ones of these guys can step up and be above average big league pitcher sin the next few years? That's the question we still have to answer. It could well be none of them...but at least we have a boatload of candidates. Big difference in pitching in the minors and majors. Also you've penciled Gavin Floyd for 175 innings next season. Please don't back off of it.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 01:33 PM) They don't? I'd say the definitely have an organization filled with innings eaters. Heck, the Sox starters have pitched more innings than all but two other teams in baseball. How does that not indicate to you that they eat innings? The only mess in the pitching department is the half dozen crappy or inconsistent bullpen guys this team rolled out there from May through July (plus a couple guys out there now: Myers and Bukvich). They have no one in the minors you can expect to come in next year and pitch 175 innings, and I am ;the biggest Gio Gonzalez fan on this board. Danks ran out of gas after about 90 innings this season. Perhaps next year he will last longer, but I doubt he can double it. If Garland or Vazquez go or even Contreras that will be someone the last couple of years 200 innings were counted on. I think contreras is still a mess right now as is Danks as he is 0-7 with a 6.80 ERA his last 8 starts. Garland has not be very good his last 10 starts or so overall, and I think he will be gone so a rookie is going to fill in unless someone is acquired. That could be 60% of the rotation which is coming into 2008 ugly.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 01:16 PM) So Thome, Dye, Konerko, AJP... all terrible players, huh? Not having a bad year, just bad players? The problem is even when these guys put up great numbers, and I really don't know how you could expect bigger numbers collectively than what these guys provided in 2006, it wasn't nearly good enough. The pitching will be key. Somehow KW is going to have to fix the mess he has while peeling off a Garland or Vazquez. Its going to be difficult, because the Sox don't have an organization filled with innings eaters.

I do think the Marlins took Adrian Gonzalez #1 in 2000 based on signability. I'm pretty sure he was projected to go in the first round but much lower. You look at that 2000 draft and scratch your head. The first round was pretty bad. Gonzalez actually may be the best player.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 12:07 PM) Nice cherry-picking, again. 2 years after? I once posted in here (I need to find the post) a list of how teams did the YEAR after they won a WS. As I recall, a significant number played below .500, and I don't think more than half made the playoffs the next year. So looking at 2 years out, this team collapsed, and that is actually not as fast as a number of teams collapsed. What I stated was a fact and it has to do with this season since it was 2 years ago the White Sox won it all. It is not cherry picking. I also stated a few teams were below .500 the season after they won but bounced back. It actually was on a Fox or ESPN broadcast back in April or May. I also pointed out it depends how you look at it when it was posed this was one of the biggest collapes ever. I actually posted my fact earlier this year when I thought the odds were the White Sox would have a decent second half based on it.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 11:49 AM) So, you're basically saying that this team fell apart quicker and worse than any other Championship team in history? It depends how you look at it, but its up there.

A question I have is why aren't guys like Masset and Aardsma now with the team. They would seem to have a better shot at the 2008 roster than Bukvich or Myers, and you never know you may have a 15 inning game and probably can use one.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 11:48 AM) Baseball is a game that is supposed to be enjoyed. Sorry if their isn't equal time given to every negative thing that happens, or could be happening to the White Sox, but I am guessing the reason is simply that for something that is supposed to be entertainment, most people who rather focus on the postive versus obsessing about the negative. If you want to strain to see the negative in everything, have at it. Most people watch baseball because it brings them happiness. Because of that you are going to see a focus on the good things. For most people if they didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't waste their time on it. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Then nobody with this "attitude" should ever rip on Cubs fans. They should be admired for being positive about all the negative. I agree, baseball should be enjoyed, and having Gavin as part of your rotation in 2008 will make it not enjoyable.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 11:37 AM) Who's the last team to fall so far so quickly (1st to basically last) that didn't do it intentionally (Marlins)? Before this season, the Marlins were the only team to finish below .500 2 years after winning the WS. I think they did it both times they won. There were a couple of teams that finish below .500 right after winning but bounced back the next season.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 10:50 AM) Jake Westbrook sucked with the Yankees too. He turned out all right. You're right. The 6 2/3 innings he pitched for the Yankees when he was 22 were godawful.

I changed my mind. Floyd is great, as are Fields, Richar, Gonzalez, and Owens. I will disregard the 7-21 record the last 28 games. The Sox have the best owner, GM , manager and players in the game. It was just a fluke this year it didn't work out. Its worked out so often in the past. At least once since 1917. Its funny guys talk about others egos when stating opinions that differ from theirs. Maybe they are looking in the wrong direction for inflated egos.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 10:19 AM) We all have seen some new things this season, but I have to just shake my head reading "Sox fans" come up with excuses for White Sox players success. "Well, you can't really give credit to Floyd in his start at Detroit, and it's such a big park," or "Well, it was raining pretty good, which can make it hard for Indian hitters" I know a lot of you have your internet ego's to keep up with, but GMAB. It's one thing to root for a high pick, that helps with the future. But to look for actual reasons to discount young players success is a different story. Well then, why isn't there thread after thread about how Fields is going backwards offensively lately or the same with Richar? Should we ignore what they did earlier and just go by the past week or so? Why isn't there anybody backing off the Contreras is 94 years old and a bum when his last 5 starts he's 2-2 with a 4.50 ERA. Lower than Vazquez in 2006 when the going rate for that we were told on this board was 11 million to 12 million a year. Contreras could be a bargain at 10 mill. The bottom line is Floyd pitched a couple of decent games, but having that trump the awful outings or the rest of his career isn't wise IMO. Sorry you disagree. If you think Danks, Floyd and a rookie filling the last 3 spots in the White Sox rotation in 2008 is a good way to win in 2008, more power to you. I think it means battling with KC again.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 01:22 AM) So Cleveland and Detroit are mailing it in? I don't get it. You and Pratt wont give Gavin a chance. He automatically sucked to both of you before he made one single pitch for this team. He did suck before he threw one pitch for the Sox, check his performance in Philadelphia. As far as I can tell, even with his September awakening his ERA this season is near 6.00. Maybe you think that's outstanding, but I think it sucks.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 09:28 AM) He faced two teams trying to get to the playoffs, he didn't face two teams who have shut it down already. HUGE difference. He faced the Tigers struggling, without Sheffield, no Ordonez, really Hawk was laughing at their line-up. Cleveland is cruising and it was a rainy night. What about the starts when he was crushed? There really is no race in the AL Central. Its funny, the Sox have all the guys people seem to be foaming over in the line-up. Richar, Fields now Floyd and the Sox continue to lose. I think there are a lot of masochists on this board. BTW, the Indians didn't even get into Chicago yesterday until 4:30 AM. It probably was a good time to face them.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 09:00 AM) You keep saying September starts like because it's September that they don't mean anything. That's just wrong. Great, so a 21, 22 and 23 year old pitcher struggled, I know it's impossible at the ripe old age of 24 to improve, but hey look...Gavin is improving. You pull out some odd comparisons at times, a 24 year old pitcher who is clearly getting better to a pitcher who is about 84 and clearly getting worse, no comparison there at all. Ask KW about evaluating September performances for young guys. I'm glad Floyd is improving, but really how could he not have improved? If he has a 3.00 ERA this month does it mean he will continue to get better? Look at his 2004 numbers. They were pretty good, why was he not able to continue to improve then. He's a tease, and always will be. Contreras at least has shown he can get the job done in meaningful games.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Sep 11, 2007 -> 08:43 AM) Yet he continues to give him starts. curious And Andy Gonzalez continues to play 3rd base, and Mike Myers continues to get called in from the bullpen and.............................