Dick Allen

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 20, 2007 -> 03:18 PM) From the stuff Balta posted in the other thread on this subject: I took it to mean a Mass. athlete and another guy 6'5" 276 lbs. Is it one guy in the ESPN article or 2?

The Royals sure have made some Sox pitchers who have struggled the last couple months feel better about themselves. The White Sox offense has done that a lot this year too.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 20, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) That part there is what makes no sense. You think that ST games, where no one cares if they win or lose and teams have few starters in the lineup all game, are MORE important than actual games in-season during August and September? I fail to see how that is possible. I do think he needs to show up in ST and look good. But that is just one part of his evaluation - this part now is just as important if not more. What was more indicative of David Aardsma's 2007 performance, the way he pitched in Sept. 06 or the way he pitched in March? There isn't enough evidence or enough of a track record for Floyd to fall back on if spring training doesn't go good for him. Danks made the team based on spring training. Esteban Loaisa made the team in 2003 based on spring training. Gil Heredia had a shot that year, and failed. Both had a longer record of having at least some success at the major league level. This is a team that is not rebuilding. If that were the case, the story could be different.

QUOTE(knightni @ Sep 20, 2007 -> 12:51 PM) That guy who's always being himself maybe? What about the 6'5" 276 pound athlete/entertainer. Wouldn't that description mean wrestler? Isn't a certain wrester with a reality show about that height and weight?

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 20, 2007 -> 11:03 AM) How about K-Rod in 2002? Or Maggs in 1997? Or even a guy like Johnny Estrada in 2003? I'm not about to compare Gavin to any of those, because none of those comparisons hold true; neither do the comparisons to Fogg, Rauch, or even Floyd himself (because there's no way you can even come close to justifying that Floyd is the same pitcher now that he was in 2004). All cases should be looked at separately and no conclusions should be drawn because of what other people did. I don't think anyone has suggested that Floyd is going to be a good pitcher because of a good September, just that it's not meaningless. All we've said is that if he finished the season well, he should be given the first crack at a shot in the rotation next year, and nothing more. If he earns it, it's his. (BTW, I'm not exactly sure how you can suggest that Floyd was ready - or whatever you're suggesting - based on his numbers in 2004. Good ERA, but his control was terrible and he had a freakishly low home run rate; in comparison, he has a freakishly high home run rate this year - 2.4 HR/9. With a home run rate like that, it's a minor miracle that his ERA is under 6; a lot of that probably has to do with his excellent control thus far. Another good sign - regardless of how many 410 foot flyballs he's given up in Comerica - is that his home run rate has gone down as the season has progressed: 5 HR/9 in July, 2.2 HR/9 in August, and all the way down to 0.5 HR/9 in September) His home run rate has decreased in Sept. I believe. If Gavin Floyd was a White Sox prospect in 2004 and he had the Sept. he had, he would be called at worst a #3 next year by many here. I don't know how you cannot compare Gavin Floyd to Gavin Floyd, or come to the conclusion he is a better pitcher now as opposed to then. Its very possible he's worse. My argument is against those who base this month's results as indication of what next year he will be. I have no problem with the White Sox giving him a shot next spring. How he throws then is far more important than how he throws now.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 10:31 PM) I've said it before and I'll say it again...it would be a very smart move to pick a day when there is a lefty starter on the mound once per week and decide that JD is going to DH and Terrero (if he's still here) is going to play RF. Why push your luck and wind up getting JT hurt? That's a pretty good idea. Although I'd like an upgrade on the Terrero part.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) So Gavin's performance right now means nothing towards his future with the White Sox organization? If you actually believe that Gavin is pitching with no pressure on him, I'm going to find myself in complete disagreement with you. It's a job for next year, and it's an opportunity to prove himself to a major league team; if he doesn't prove himself in the least, he's back to trying to prove himself to any of 30 MLB teams again next year. I also don't understand the knocking of Rauch or Fogg either...they have been very productive pitchers in their own rights. Rauch has turned himself into a cog in the Nationals bullpen, and Josh Fogg has put up a career 4.90 ERA over 1000 innings. If Gavin Floyd can give the Sox 4.90 over 1000, I'd be extremely happy. Check Gavin Floyd, September 2004. What did that mean in 2005?

QUOTE(SEALgep @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 10:22 PM) And what reasoning has caused this theory? The guy has hit a minimum of 30 every year except for one in the last 12 seasons. That's the point, there is no reasoning. He's supposed to hit at least 40 homers every year or he sucks. Even when he was in a slump, and when he goes in one you can pretty much lob the ball up there and get him out, his AB per HR ratio for this season was almost exactly the same as Willie Mays' career ratio. The guy is a slugger. I hope his back holds up for more games in 2008.

QUOTE(SEALgep @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 10:18 PM) Your ability to copy and paste astounds me. There actually has been numerous rip jobs on Thome even last season. The latest when he was slumping a couple of weeks ago was that he had lost his power.

You need to read Soxtalk more often. Thome has lost his power. He's a nice guy though.

I'm a big fan of Contreras, but if I were KW, if someone would take his entire contract, I would move him. I wouldn't eat any of it, as there is a possibilty he can still be a good pitcher. I'm one of "those" who takes good results at this time of year in the Sox position with a grain of salt, but 4-2 3.56 ERA his last 7 starts probably will quiet the people who think he is done at least a little. People will then question, I know one in particular, why I would have hope with Contreras but be doubtful of Floyd when Gavin is 24 and Contreras is 57 or whatever. I have more confidence Contreras could be decent because he has done it before, and it wasn't 7 years ago like Darin Erstad.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 05:31 PM) To think the Sox were considered completely stupid to get rid of Josh Fogg after his awesome September 2001. Charlie Haeger Sept 2006 September 0.82 1 0 1 1 5 0 0 11.0 4 3 1 0 5 15 .111 A WHIP below 1.00, more than a strikeout an inning and a .111 BAA.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 04:54 PM) I think it means you can definitely trade one - just not both. Because given Floyd's performances, I think he has shown there is a good chance he will be a serviceable starter. Add that to a few guys like Gio and others who will be vying for it, and I would feel confident that one of them will be OK. Now, trading both, that might be taking a big risk. See David Aardsma's September last year. He was pretty dominating in games that meant nothing. You can't count on anything based on performance the last 3 or 4 weeks of a lost season. I do agree that they are going to trade one of the starters no matter what, and try to replace him with Bartolo Colon-like veteran. Someone who can be had without too much committment in both years and money. The other problem with giving Floyd the #5 spot is you make Danks, a guy who couldn't even finish out the season, the #4 spot. If Danks had the same season that he's had, and the White Sox had been in contention, he almost assuredly would have seen Charlotte himself. There's a good chance Danks improves on his 2007 season next year, but he basically ran out of gas after 90 innings or so this season. It may not be realistic to think he can give you anything near what you are used to seeing from Garland as far as innings goes. If they don't trade him, they will give Floyd a shot at the rotation, but he's going to have to show them something in spring training.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 09:14 AM) Yes, but it sounds like Walker and Cooper are safe. Funny enough, that article makes it seem like Razor might not be back. Its not like he's had a lot to do at 3rd base this year. It would be hysterical if he and the Chief, the bullpen catcher get the axe. Ozzie did say Razor was doing a good job, about what he said about Raines before he was replaced. I hope they keep Razor around, although I've heard he rubs some people the wrong way, but so does just about everybody.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 10:16 PM) Actually in other words, getting a better selection of talent is better than a winning 70 games. Here is an easier way of putting it for everyone. There are 25 girls in the room, would you like to be the first guy in the room to get your pick. Or would you rather be the 13th and see whats left over. The point was that the White Sox second choice in the 1989 draft was actually better than their first. Thomas was picked #7. Robin Ventura was picked #10 the year before. There were 3 players picked before him that never played in the major leagues including Ty Griffin a guy the Cubs, a team looking for a 3rd baseman for decades picked right before the Sox picked Ventura. In 1987 if the Sox had their first pick, they would have chose Mike Harkey,but fortunately he was unavailable thanks again to the Cubs and Jack McDowell wound up on the right side of town.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 10:01 PM) You would of been a lot of fun in the late 80s when we stacked up on talent. Oh that 77th win is so much better than that silly football player. Frank Thomas wont help us this year. Actually a couple of more losses that year would have meant Jeff Jackson instead of Frank Thomas. That's who the Sox really wanted, but Philadelphia chose him.

3 k's 3 runs. He truly is a tease.

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 07:00 PM) Not necessarily. A lot of people thought Buerhle and Dye were gone too. I guess it all depends on what/who KW thinks the winning pieces are for another championship run. I don't see the need to tear the team apart and rebuild as many suggest. KW believes Gio, Danks and Floyd will be in his rotation in the next couple of seasons. He has Contreras signed for 2 more years, Vazquez signed for 3 more years. Buerhle for 4 more plus some others in the minors. I think if Buerhle wasn't re-signed that there was a chance Garland would get a big offer. I could be all wrong, but unless someone gets hurt between now and spring training, I think Garland is out of here, and I don't believe he will bring back all that much in return besides salary relief. Maybe a middle reliever or 2 or a couple of B prospects, but sometimes those guys turn out better than top prospects.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 06:08 PM) Mark Prior It would probably be one of the top 5 all time threads on Soxtalk, if they signed him.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:43 PM) The problem is...you almost have to make your decision on Floyd before the spring...because making the decision on Floyd if it's a yes requires an open rotation spot. If you're considering Garland for Furcal...you're doing so with the expectation that Floyd has shown you enough to decide that he'll be at worst an adequate 5th starter next season. You can't just hold onto Garland until the end of ST...not when you have to decide whether or not to pick up the option on Uribe and figure out who's your SS if you don't. I think they will trade Garland no matter what. Its too bad there isn't a guy like Paul Byrd available to sign as a free agent. If he's available cheap and for a year or so, I wouldn't rule out KW looking at Bartolo Colon. He didn't look all that great Friday, but he hadn't pitched in a while and he was between 91-94 during the game. If I knew he could make it through the season, which obviously can't be determined and you would probably have to be very skeptical, I would prefer Colon at $4-5 million than Garland at $12 million for 1 year. That's just me though.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:41 PM) A poor outing tonight would certainly make it harder to justify opening up a rotation spot for Floyd next year. I would really, really like to see him finish the year without another disastrous outing. Just put up quality starts, that's what I'm sort of hoping for. If he can't hold his own against the Royals in Sept., then even I'd have to question whether we could expect anything better from him next season. These Sept. performances are all we're going to have to base probably our biggest offseason decision on; do we trade Mr. Garland or not? If Gavin Floyd can't cut it in the last couple trial outings, even if they are just september tryouts, then you can't trade Garland unless you have someone else lined up to fill that role. You're making my point. I don't think an outing in a battle for 4th place on September 18th should have any bearing on Gavin Floyd's position with the 2008 White Sox whether he gives up 10 runs in the first, or pitches a perfect game. My point I made over a month ago was Floyd can't possibly guarantee himself a spot in the White Sox rotation in 2008 before 2007 was over, no matter how he pitched. If KW doesn't let him go this winter, he is going to have to make the team in spring training. I think he should be a reliever, and was glad when they threw him in the bullpen. I think the guy is a head case and Ozzie could pick his spots, besides its not like he would have had to have been all that great to unseat a guy like Bukvich. I understand getting Danks a break, I still think Floyd in the rotation when wins matter is a big mistake.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:30 PM) Guys win and lose jobs all the time in Spring Training. Practice games. They don't count for anything, yet roles are defined, and opinions are formed. Your saying these games in September mean LESS than games in March? I believe they do. If Floyd went 5-0 with a 1.23 ERA this September, but had a 15.00 ERA in spring training next year, chances are he would have no chance to start out in the rotation. If he were 0-4 with an ERA of 11.00 this September, but had a 2.50 ERA in the spring, he would have a much better shot at a spot in the rotation.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:28 PM) You kill me, man. What the heck does that even have to do with Freddy Garcia? Was he auditioning for a job with the 2007 White Sox? No. He had one or was going to be traded, but he sure wasn't auditioning. Nor is he 25, or just breaking in to the majors, or in any other way comparable to Floyd. And we all know it doesn't matter to you if Floyd goes out and pitches yet another good game, because in your view he sucks and will never get better. Got it. Thankfully, KW and most baseball folks realize that players are not all static, which is the main reason he is getting these starts (the other being a possiblity he is traded, but I doubt that). Why else, do you suppose, they are sending him out there? I don't even think Floyd is that good - but I can see the obvious fact that he is getting better. I now think he may even be a serviceable 5th starter, if he keeps this up in his last couple starts. My eyes are not completely clouded by my previous assessments. Although his W-L record was pretty good, Garcia was awful in 2006 until the last month or so. I would be willing to bet if you went back and searched, that several people, maybe even yourself thought that Freddy had learned to pitch with his decreased velocity and should be good for 15+ wins in 2007. I am not of the opinion 1 or 2 starts in meaningless games makes up for the garbage that came out of his hand when the games had at least a little meaning. What would doing good or bad tonight mean for 2008 for Floyd?

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:13 PM) So we can expect Gavin to go under the knife next April? I love pointless (stupid? dumb?) comparisons. September stats is the comparison. You may think its dumb or stupid, but I don't. Besides almost everyone said Freddy was pitching injured all of last season, even me, as dumb or stupid as I am.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:14 PM) I'm sure you are trying to make a point here, but I can't tell what it is. Are you saying Floyd is also suffering from some sort of injury? Or that we are going to trade Floyd this offseason? Or that Floyd is also related to Ozzie in some way? What I am saying is these games mean squat. To win a job with the White Sox based on what you do in September would be a mistake. I am thankful KW knows it. Floyd pitched well against a depleted Detroit line-up and pitched well against a Cleveland team that has a comfortable lead in the division that got to bed at 6AM on a long rainy night in Chicago. They probably weren't too fired up about playing the last place White Sox.