Dick Allen

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 09:51 AM) Ryan is an excellent GM. His downfall is his continued non-aggressiveness at the deadlines. Maybe that means he has a big ego, maybe that means he's stubborn? Who knows, it's all how people choose to spin it. Maybe its just that he doesn't want to overpay for garbage. He can't pick up a lot of money because although Pohlad may be the richest owner in baseball, he's also the cheapest. Their payroll used to be lower than their revenue sharing check. KW wanted to be aggressive at the deadline in 2005 and all he could do was Geoff Blum. That worked out fine, although Blum contributed just about nothing during the regular season.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 08:40 AM) So far, I've provided W-L in baseball as a measure... putting competitive teams on the fields as a measure... and world championships as a measure. In all three areas, KW does better than the majority of GM's. And what responses have there been? "Those numbers are misleading." Why? "You are as wrong as can be." Any reason why? Seriously. This season is a disaster, and KW should take a significant chunk of the responsibility for it. Also, he is NOT the best in the game. But if you think KW is somehow a substandard GM (which the majority here seem to), then you are simply choosing to be in denial of the facts, and of the nature of the game. Can anyone provide any actual information other than this one lousy season, that shows that KW is worse than the majority of GM's? Yes because you get measured by how you do in the division. The schedule is unbalanced. Would St. Louis have a championship in 2006 if its W-L record were measured by baseball as a whole? For the first 3 years of Kenny's reign he had the second highest payroll in the AL Central and finished second all 3 times. In the last 4, all under Ozzie, the White Sox have by far the highest payroll in the AL Central. He has finished 2nd, 1st, 3rd, and now 5th. So if you do it by your method in the AL central he has finished where he should have finished 4 years and below where he should have finished 3 years. That is below average. Of course that is a little misleading as well. He certainly isn't the worst GM in baseball, but to say he's in the top 5, or go overboard like Hawk and call him the best, based on 1 season out of 7 isn't right. Roland Hemond's team won 99 games in 1983, they just didn't win in the playoffs. Close but no win. Roland was gone 2 years later. Its a very similar situation. The 2 year records are pretty close to the same, and the farm system is questionable at best. KW needs to be on a short leash. I can only hope he is truly humbled by this season, because his ego has become as big as some of his mistakes.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 08:28 AM) Seriously -- Williams is without a doubt one of the least successful GMs in major league baseball. In the course of 7 years he's built the worst farm system in baseball and has demonstrated this season that his plan to rectify that is to find scapegoats. Impressive stuff. Anyone that thinks Williams has proven he's even a mediocre GM is delusional. While I'm no fan, winning a championship does qualify him for a lifetime of at least mediocre.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 08:15 AM) Just another point to add to the discussion. As people have noted, the Sox are operated as a profitable business. As such, there are budget constraints, and KW (just like most GM's) has to work within them. So why are people ignoring salaries? Some seem to have forgotten... the Sox were NOT a high payroll team until 2006. So, how about we look at GM's measured in terms of efficiency? How effective they are with the salary cap they are given? Let's look at the Sox under KW. Here are the Sox final standings records in W-L (the single most accurate measure of a team's talent level), along with the team's payroll, and their (ranks) in all of baseball... 2001 Season -----Final Record: 83-79 (14) -----Payroll: $62.3M (16) 2002 Season -----Final Record: 81-81 (14) -----Payroll: $57.0M (18) 2003 Season -----Final Record: 86-76 (11) -----Payroll: $51.0M (22) 2004 Season -----Final Record: 83-79 (15) -----Payroll: $65.2M (15) 2005 Season -----Final Record: 99-63 (2) -----Payroll: $75.1M (13) 2006 Season -----Final Record: 90-72 (6) -----Payroll: $108.6M (5) Anyone notice a pattern or two? Every single year 2001-2005, the Sox placed AT OR ABOVE what their payroll should have dictated. And in 2006, they placed one slot behind it. So until this year, which has certainly been a disaster, KW has put together a consistent history of doing better with the resources he was given than the majority of GM's in baseball. The numbers prove that. So, again, we see that KW has done better than most GM's at putting teams on the field that are as competitive as possible within budgetary constraints. You can use W-L as above, or staying competitive late, or World Series championships. Pick your measure. By ANY of those measures, he has done better than the majority of current or contemporary GM's in the game. Those numbers are misleading. Except for 2005 which nobody can take away from him, he's about right there despite having 38 games a year against DET and KC from 2001-2004, arguably the worst teams in the majors. How does KW's rank in payroll in the AL central compare to the result? I'm sure it will be a little different.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:32 PM) Take a look at the offensive production minus Konerko, Thome and Dye. That's 6 free innings for the Rangers. Look at the line-up other than those guys. Besides Fields hitting a homer every now and then, there is absolutely nothing there.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:26 PM) I hope they don't feel like overspending on Hunter is going to solve the other 10 holes or so they have. I was reading an old article when Beltran signed with the Mets. Houston offerred him a ton, but a limited no trade which killed the deal. The Mets offered a full no trade. The same will happen with Hunter, so you don't have to worry about him being with the White Sox. It is strange the White Sox will trade for someone with a no trade, Jim Thome, but won't give one to anyone.

QUOTE(ottawa_sox @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:21 PM) Surely they have no choice. Bringing him back and chancing this much ineptitude for a second year in a row would be too embarrassing. One thing that will improve next season is the back up catcher. This may be a major league record for ineptness. Even if Hall is brought back, there is no way he will be as bad as this season. To think AJ was worried about his playing time being cut into.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:16 PM) Molina looked like 5 times the hitter Hall's been this year. I'd rather they just release him this offseason. Aren't they paying him next year? They should have just let him have the surgery.

QUOTE(ottawa_sox @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:12 PM) And if I heard correctly yesterday, OMIT was recalled by the Tigers. Hall's 2007 makes Timo look like a first ballot HOFer.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:15 PM) I just wonder if Hall will finish up with more walks than RBI's. Right now he's sitting on 1 for each category. He has twice as many passed balls as walks and RBI combined. Molina had a walk and an RBI, so the back up catchers have 2 BB and 2 RBI on the season.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:12 PM) Nope, he's been absolutely worthless in every possible way. I hope for his sake its because of his injury. Molina was one of the worst hitters I've ever seen, but at least he could catch a little. Back up White Sox catchers have 2 RBI this year. That is incredible.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) So, I think I just heard the most depressing comment of the year: the Sox have Gonzalez, Hall, and Erstad to try and tie the game in the 9th. That's so bad, they will probably score. Has any position player ever had a worse year than Toby Hall, offensively and defensively? He has to be the worst position player in the majors at this time.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 09:56 PM) The White Sox had to rebuild practically the entire starting staff after all the arms fell off after 2000. KW has had the luxury and resources to go for it? What about all the White Sox fans complaining ad nauseum about payroll restrictions all those years? It's not as if the resources were unlimited, not by a long shot. Buerhle and Garland have been constants. That's 40% of your rotation 7 years later is pretty good. The White Sox have spent about $176 million more on players than Cleveland the past 5 seasons. I don't know if Shapiro is all that great, but the deal for Colon was good. Picking up Hafner for a bad pitcher was good. Getting Co Co Crisp for an old Chuck Finley was good. He didn't have the built in offense that KW to start, and KW's teams were mediocre in a horrible division. Cleveland was rebuilding, Detroit was losing 100 + games, KC was KC.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 08:07 PM) Right, it's KW's responsibility for us winning but Beane and Shapiro for them losing. Gillick has a longer track record of success than KW and is a better GM. I'm not going to spend time arguing over whether or not Minaya is better than KW. Most people would tell you so. Ask around somewhere else and see what you get. That's a great point. 90 victory seasons are something for KW to hang his hat on, its the players fault if they don't do more. If Beane or Ryan put together a playoff team and they lose in the first or second round, they don't know how to build championship teams, its not the players fault they don't win, its the flawed roster. KW has had 1 team out of 7 that's played up to or beyond expectations. That's 14.3%. You can blame the players, but they have been different every year. You can blame the manager. He's had a couple of those. Or maybe just maybe its the guy responsible for putting together the roster. The problem with 2007 is KW is hard headed and didn't want to admit he was wrong about 2006. He wanted to bring back the same guys because he said they won 90 games and couldn't have played worse. Wrong again. Its that same stubborness why we have to watch Gavin Floyd surrender gopher ball after gopher ball. It wasn't White Sox scouts who suggested KW get Floyd. It was KW himself. Ozzie doesn't want him on the roster. He has said a few times he has to see what Kenny wants to do. Ozzie has less say in Gavin Floyd than any other player he's ever managed. One of KW's apologists on this board actually ripped into your boy JS in one thread about a month ago saying winning the division gets old.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 05:24 PM) id still rather have rowand hit the market and us not sign him.....higher supply means lower prices I don't think there will be too many bargains. The Yankees and Texas are both in the market for CFers and both have no problem spending money. I wonder if the Sox would take Johnny Damon off the Yankees hands if the Yankees ate some of the contract. I don't even know if he can play CF anymore or LF for that matter.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 05:30 PM) At least they were financially. They had 455 consecutive sellouts from '95-'01, right when Shapiro took over. Actually the Indians were sold then, and I'm pretty sure that's why Hart bailed. The new owner paid a premium. He bought high. In fact, he probably couldn't have bought higher. I think he then started having other financial issues.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 05:23 PM) That's great and all, but has little to do with KW. The Bulls have won 6 championships over the past 15 NBA seasons (40%,) but that doesn't make Paxson the best GM in the NBA. Just like wins and loses in the playoffs has little to do with KW. It wasn't because of KW the ball went through Tony G's legs. KW had nothing to do with Konerko hitting a grand slam. He didn't turn on a giant fan to push Pods homer into the seats. Once you get into the playoffs, it pretty much a crapshoot. Is Jockety a genius for winning with a team that won 83 regular season games? KW won one, I'll tip my hat, wire to wire, it doesn't happen very often, but it doesn't give him a lifetime pass. He'll be here next year, and probably a long time after that. It will be interesting to see how he intends to fix this. I think its more than tweaks which are needed. I hope he agrees.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 05:15 PM) Oh, so that's why Shapiro undeservingly gets more credit. I'd say the Indians were in a hell of a lot better shape before Shapiro than the White Sox before KW. You may want to look at Cleveland's roster when he took over. Brady Anderson was with the Tribe. They had Vizquel and Thome, but not all that much else. The Sox had Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Crede, Garland, Buerhle, Valentin, Durham, Konerko, they had a decent team. Cleveland was dismantling, the White Sox building. Its probably time for the White Sox to dismantle, but they probably can't afford the attendance hit like Cleveland took. Wasn't it around the time Hart got out, when the Indians had been sold for a premium and the new owner was losing a boatload on another business?

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 05:05 PM) So you would rather be the Oakland A's or Minnesota Twins of the past 7 years instead of the Sox? Interesting. ..and the easiest answer isn't KW because his job is toughest spot to fill. How hard would it be to find another pitching or hitting coach over a GM? The Twins won in 1987 and 1991 and make the playoffs occassionally. Oakland is usually right there, won 3 in a row in the 70's and won 1 in the 80's and make the playoffs pretty often.I would take Minnesota and Oakland's last 30 years over the White Sox last 30 years easily.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 04:04 PM) How many of the present MLB gms have a World Series ring? So that means Kenny should be GM as long as he wants? Jerry Krause had 6. How many GM's have ever had that? How much credit did he get?

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 04:37 PM) For comparison, how about Shapiro in Cleveland. Everyone raves about their talent, and I like their team. He's been there for 6 years as GM and in their organization since 1992. From 2001 to 2006 they won one division (2001) and were over .500 one other year (2005). They had a great 2005 as we all know and then completely tanked last year. They're a good team this year and lead the division but I wouldn't classify them as dominant by any means. Ownership stuck with both Shapiro and their manager after last year's debacle and now they lead the division. The teams were at different points when each took over. Shapiro had to rebuild and trade veterans for young players. KW has had the luxury and resources to go for it. The White Sox have had about $120 million more to play with the last 4 seasons. Some of it because KW won, but still the comparision is really not fair.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 02:49 PM) Well-said I don't know that the Sox have been so successful under KW. He did win , I'll give him that, but for the majority of the time he's been the GM the division has been weak. KC and Det. were absolutely atrocious, Cleveland rebuilt. Minnesota has turned over their roster. In the six years he didn't win a championship or division or wild card, KW's teams are a combined 9 games over .500. Considering the unbalanced schedule, its not so impressive, at least to the degree where you can say without a doubt that KW is the smartest GM around.

I must say it is amazing Cooper gets no blame. I understand most of the pitchers suck, but so does most of the line-up.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 10:18 AM) "BOOR-jwaaah" Sort of like a right winger for the Montreal Canadiens. I hope he's more successful than BOOR-chard. BTW, the headline on whitesox.com is Floyd takes the reigns as White Sox go south. I wonder if they thought about that one before they put it up.

Gene Lamont got fired and he has a better winning pct. managing the White Sox than Ozzie Guillen. Jerry Manuel was fired after having a team win 86 games. I love how some people claim 2006 was a success because the team won 90 games, yet bash Billy Beane because the A's have won that many several times but have done nothing in the playoffs. Personally, I don't think Ozzie or Kenny ever will be fired, but if they bring back basically the same team with small tweaks, or bring back a team in 2008 that is the same or worse, they both should be gone. Roland Hemond lost his job after a "decent" 1985. With 7 or 8 guys on the roster making $10 million or more, battling it out with KC for the cellar isn't going to do White Sox partner's pockets any good.