Dick Allen

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 09:42 PM) Loiaza at least had something of a successful track record in the earlier part of his career, and he always had good stuff...it was just that adding the cutter in 2003 made him an All-Star caliber pitcher. He was always pretty mediocre, but your right, his "stuff" was always was highly regarded. His cutter was great in 2003, but while he's been serviceable when healthy, he's never been lights out like that season. He lost how many 1-0 or 2-1 games or he would have had one of the greatest records in the last 50 years that season. I don't care if its AJ, but Ozzie needs to put a guy at the top of the order that actually gets on base. If Owens must play, bat him 8th or 9th.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 09:41 PM) That would require the Sox trading someone at peak value. That's a foreign idea to KW. You're right. He really believes they "turned a corner". That was his quote about Aardsma is spring training. He did turn a few more corners all the way to Charlotte. We will always have 2005. If that didn't happen, I'm pretty sure most people here would think KW is an idiot.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 09:35 PM) So you wanted to replace Thornton after 2006? Interesting. I do think its time that when a guy who has mostly sucked his entire career comes up with a good season to maybe lower the expectations the following season. See Loaisa, Cotts, Politte, now Thornton.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) Porcello or Main? yes

They should go to rapid fire picks, and take a 10 minute break every 10 picks or so so ESPN can feel they are a part of it.

Did anyone read the article on how its hard to project college pitchers because the balls that are used in college have much higher seams, and make sliders and curves a lot more wicked than they will be in the majors. Supposedly the ball is different from the minors to the majors as well.

every team knows who they are going to take 5 seconds after the team before it selects. You can't trade the picks, so it really doesn't make a lot of sense to keep it a secret.

every team knows who they are going to take 5 seconds after the team before it selects. You can't trade the picks, so it really doesn't make a lot of sense to keep it a secret.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 12:16 PM) Last minute, you still got a couple hours at least. My pick is gonna be: Josh Smoker. It goes pretty quick, doesn't it?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 12:07 PM) Once again, that didn't make it a bad trade to make at the time it was made. Considering how bad Vazquez was the second half of 2004 with the Yankees, considering how mediocre his 2005 season was, considering how he gave up a lot of homers and would be coming into a bandbox, considering Ozzie had to talk him into pitching in the AL, (he originally didn't want to be traded to the Sox because he wanted to stay in the NL), considering the talent going to Arizona, and considering Vazquez's contract, there are several reasons for someone to believe it was a bad trade at the time it was made.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 12:00 PM) So if Buerhle and Jose would have pitched anywhere near the way they did the prior season, Javy couldn't have been some help to us? Especially the way he was pitching down the stretch? He wasn't even .500. I also doubt it was a coincidence he picked it up as soon as the White Sox postseason chances went to approximately 0.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 11:49 AM) You can't fault him because you are using everything that's happened in hindsight as evidence of why it shouldn't have been done. I try to look at what evidence was available at the time the trade was made as evidence of whether it should have been done or not. I want a good GM, which Kenny is. You want a fortune teller. Good luck. The team didn't win last year because of the starting pitching. The starting pitching Kenny went out and fortified prior to the season. What the hell do you want? At some point, it comes down to the damn players not performing. It takes a fortune teller to conclude Vazquez is hopelessly mediocre? See his 2004 and 2005 seasons and get back to me. Then his 2006 season which the team wins 90 games, he has the lead in all but 3 or 4 starts and doesn't finish .500. He is not very good. He strikes out a lot of guys, but he's not very good. Giving him an extension just compounds the mistake.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 11:34 AM) Nonetheless, you can't blame KW for making the trade at the time he made it. And holding it against Javy for the rest of his White Sox career because he was 1 of 4 guys who weren't getting the job done when we needed them doesn't seem quite fair to me either. Which is probably what led him to react that way. He probably has tried damn near everything and is running out of answers. There comes a point when nothing else can be done. Why can't you fault him? Because you say so? He also gave up El Duque and Vizcaino and relied on Politte and Cotts and an injured Hermanson to repeat their 2005 performances. It was a dumb trade. Now 2 years before he loses control of Vazquez he signs him to an extension. This isn't some 25 year old kid that just needs a couple of breaks and he'll find himself. He's hopelessly around .500 just about every season.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 07:26 AM) Except he's only making $9.5 million, from the Sox. And there are 100 more pressing problems that can be pointed out, besides the results from a fourth starter whose overall stats would be much better than the average MLB 4th starter. It is what it is. We won this exact same type of game last year when our offense scored four runs for Javy early in the game. Expecting our starters to give up 0 or 1 runs per game is simply unrealistic. The harder they try to be too "fine," that's when you'll start seeing 3-5 runs given up per game by starters. He was the one who got the Sox behing 4 early. Look at Vazquez's White Sox career. He has had the lead in the vast majority of games he has pitched. Last season he had the lead in all but 3 or 4 starts and still sucked. He is what he is. Stop making excuses for his overpaid, overhyped ass.

If Crede has the surgery now, I wonder what he'll think of Boras for making sure he didn't do it last winter.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 03:43 AM) Last I checked, Javy had to throw a shutout to win tonight, yet you two are putting any blame on him at all? Just brilliant. He didn't have a good outing, but 4 runs allowed in 6 innings against the 4th best offense and perhaps the most talented lineup in baseball isn't a bad days work. Rip the deal all you want to, but mentioning Vazquez's name in a negative light and ripping him at all in this thread is an absolute joke. And when posters b**** for minor leaguers like that, they are b****ing for Jake Peavy or Jeremy Bonderman or even Matt friggin Garza. Pitchers with Buehrle and Garland's stuff can never dominate over the course of a year, but they can pitch well. Pitchers with Contreras's stuff in 2005 and Vazquez now and maybe Gio have that chance. No one in AAA brings that, and there might be like 5 pitchers in the entire organization that bring that as a starter, and that's a big if. Right now, this is about organizational ineptitude, as KW seems to want power arms that get a ton of strikeouts and Cooper is a pitching coach that tells his pitchers to pitch to contact. You really can't have it both ways. This organization needs to get on the same page up and down. That's a 6.00 ERA and it sucks. He threw so many pitches he had to be lifted. At $12.5 million its not crazy to expect more. Excepting this as not a bad game from him and looking at his strikeouts is something teams have been doing the last 4 seasons with him. The object of the game is to win. Its nice to see DJ question his concentration last night.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:47 PM) You don't put a winner on the field, no one goes to see the games. Who's going to want to pay 40+ bucks to go and see this team look like a group of zombies that don't even care? I don't blame anyone for not going. Especially these "premium" games when they jack the prices up. I also wonder if calling a couple games when they could have been played is actually blowing up in their faces. If there's a couple clouds in the sky and even a slight chance of showers, does someone want to drive an hour or more, fight traffic only to sit around and have the game called? And on top of it tell you the ticket you bought is only good for an afternoon game in August.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:37 PM) The problem with getting Crawford now is that he's going to be a FA in a few years. And it appears the tumbleweeds are poised to make a return to USCF in 2008. They haven't been close to selling out these Yankee games. QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:44 PM) We should try our best to sign Ichiro while keeping Tadahito in the process. Tadahito is getting prematurely old IMO. I was all for signing him earlier, but I think there are some pretty good secondbaseman available after this season who wouldn't break the bank.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:42 PM) The problem with getting Crawford now is it destroys our pitching depth when you know we won't be signing any free agent pitchers The Sox don't have any pitching depth IMO. I do like Gio, but other than that, maybe the kid in A ball. Everyone else pretty much sucks.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:36 PM) Chris Young with another mammoth homer tonight. That was a great trade.

I just hope KW isn't too stubborn and thinks if they're 10 games out with 11 to play against Cleveland or Detroit or whoever, that they still have a chance like we heard so many times before. These are guys he's going to lose, he might as well get something for them if the situation stays as bleak as it is right now. I think he should think about trading anyone depending on what he could get back, whether they have a contract for next year or not. I'd love to see some GM as in love with Vazquez's strikeouts as KW offer him a deal he couldn't refuse.

I think Fields will be a strikeout machine. Prinz looks like he sucks. KW talked about pitching depth in the organization, yet when middle relievers bomb out, he just has more garbage to throw on the mound. I'm sure glad he found $34 million to give to Vazquez. Owens shouldn't be leading off. Since the first half of 2005, the White Sox have had one of their worst on base guys leading off nearly every game. We get shown the stats with Pods doing well in the leadoff spot how the team does well. Wouldn't that suggest that having a decent lead off hitter is an important part of the offense? KW better go get one, because there isn't one on the White Sox, or in their minor league system or on their DL.

But did you see all the strikeouts Javy Vazquez was able to accumulate?

QUOTE(joesaiditstrue @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 06:10 PM) Walk: "We would like to see Owens try going the other way with the ball, using all parts of the field" blasphemy He's lying. Walker is telling him to try to hit every ball onto the concourse. I hope someone called him on it.

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 06:07 PM) And Pods K's, I believe that nets everyone in the park a free burger. Was it classic Pods. Strike 3 looking?