Dick Allen

QUOTE(SpringfieldFan @ Sep 23, 2005 -> 12:37 PM) Correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't "come close" - he made the deal, didn't he? I do agree, though, that management has to take responsibility for the result, not the actions. I am just speaking from my perspective as a fan. SFF Its no deal until its finalized. So you have to say he came close. The same circumstance happened to KW 3 years ago when he agreed to trade Garland for Erstad. The Angels ownership didn't approve so there was no deal.

Although technically it probably is one, I wouldn't considerate a collapse if the Sox made the playoffs as the wild card. I work with a couple of Cub fans who are getting a huge kick out of the results of the past couple of weeks. One of them insisted that if the Sox didn't win the division, but won the wild card and World Series, it still would be a bigger gag than any of the Cubs choke jobs. I used to think he had a brain.

QUOTE(Kid Gleason @ Sep 23, 2005 -> 12:01 PM) I think he means in how it effected this particular team. The strike hurt all of baseball. It may have hurt our fanbase a bit more due to Jerry, but this is directly the team. If this team collapses, it almost feels like all of the players will have to be let go and we will need to rebuild completely, just so there are no reminders of this left. Extreme, I know, but it just feels that way kind of. That's the big question. If this team does fall apart and doesn't make the playoffs how many people could you keep around? Could you keep Ozzie and KW, or would the damage be too great?

I don't know why people are panicked. In 1994 the Sox had a 1 game lead over Cleveland in August when the strike hit, and they were obviously going to win the World Series. The lead is now 1 1/2 with 10 to play, the World Series this year is a lock.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 23, 2005 -> 11:48 AM) I keep seeing this mentioned, but I want to know how it would be phsically possible? The stands are built right up to the walls, and there isn't much foul territory behind home plate that they could use. They already took 8000 seats out of the park, so I don't think they will sacrifice anymore seats, not to mention rebuilding the bullpens again somewhere else. I just don't see this happening. The only thing they could do I think is down the left field line they could probably move it back 8 feet. It would cut into the Sox bullpen, but they would have a problem placing the foul pole somewhere without displacing seats. They could make the moat a little smaller, but its really not going to have much of an effect. I'm with you, I think unless they tear a lot of things up, which I can't see happening, there really isn't much they could do in this department.

QUOTE(jasonxctf @ Sep 23, 2005 -> 11:44 AM) Hawk's career statistics??? http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/harreke01.shtml For the way he talks on the air, I would have thought he would have better numbers than these. Hawk can be self-deprecating about his career. DJ on the other hand you would think hit between 300-400 homers with close to a .300 average, while playing gold glove caliber defense when he is discussing his playing days.

QUOTE(Darren @ Sep 23, 2005 -> 11:29 AM) I think you may see them move the fences back. We've tried the power team approach, was always near the top of the league in HRs and we never won it all. I say move the fences back, make it a more pitcher friendly park and move on. When the team was a total power team, their home record was outstanding. They were awful on the road. Pitching has been the difference this season. They have won something like 12 more games scoring 2 runs or less than they had the previous 2 seasons. I would love to see them keep the upgraded pitching staff and add some power and OBP guys. I really think this team needs an offensive superstar.

QUOTE(Steff @ Sep 23, 2005 -> 10:52 AM) How is it the GM's fault the players peed themselves..? Ozzie asked for, and got, what he wanted from the GM and owners and it worked for 3 months. It's now the GM's fault Ozzie mismanaged (according to many) and the players suck (according to many)? I'm going.. and I'll be in the Q&A.. but if we don't make the playoffs, or get swept from them.. it's not Kenny I'll be yelling at in January. He's ultimately responsible for the roster, and I believe he is ultimately responsible for picking the manager although that one he may have had no choice. Hopefully this is all much to do about nothing the Sox win their next 7 games, Cleveland loses a couple and the Sox breeze through the playoffs, and Ozzie can retire with a White Sox World Series ring.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 23, 2005 -> 10:44 AM) Both of our BA's are now tied at .261 for the year. We are tied for second worst in the AL. Our pitching is great, but we cant hit. Only Seattle is worse than the two teams in BA. Too bad KW didnt try to model us after the Indians. Maybe thats next years Soxfest speech. If this team doesn't make the playoffs and KW is still around at Soxfest who will buy anything that comes out of his mouth? I'm not calling him a liar, I'm just saying his thinking will have to be proven flawed by then. Chemistry

The fact is the Sox fans were very supportive when things were going well, and have been loud and supportive even during this stretch. Ozzie doesn't like getting booed because he potentially is going to lift Politte for a guy he himself kicked off the team a week before. Give me a break. The other problem is this team has s*** the bed at home the last 2 months or so. They are 1-7 their last 8 home games. Games are expensive for a lot of people. Watching a piss poor product while spending hard earned money isn't a way to build the supportive fan base Ozzie wants.

QUOTE(JimH @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 10:36 PM) Definitely not absolving others of blame, not at all. Just saying the lack of execution is a team wide epidemic, not just limited to Rowand, etc. Jenks made a good pitch to get the first out and hold Ford at 2nd but he should have been smarter or the catcher should have been smarter after that ... they have a much better chance of getting Lecroy and Jones out by going up in the zone a little bit. The guy who really did his job and then some was McCarthy. As for Rowand, hard to nitpick because he's been very good defensively but that's been two very costly midjudges, they can't afford mistakes. It looked like Rowand got an awful jump on Ford's double in the 11th. Anyone see the replay?

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 10:29 PM) And you know what....it makes me even happier we didn't trade him. I was down on him earlier in the year when he threw his straight high fastball and didn't throw his change-up. Since he's come back, he's been fantastic. In the long run, we'll be thankful we didn't trade him. Not to sound even more negative than I am, but unless we got about 2 or 3 offensive contributors on this team for McCarthy, I still don't think this team would have had enough to win the World Series. I agree. The Sox are probably the only team in baseball that has a #3 hitter with the lowest average in the line-up.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 10:27 PM) Pretty hard to stay focused when your offense has 3 opportunities to score and doesnt. Its also hard to have 1-2-3 innings when your CF doesnt know what he is doing. 1 run in 20 innings after the homerun that was supposed to turn this slide around. I'm choking just thinking about it.

Hats off to BMac, he was awesome tonight matching Santana pitch for pitch. In fact he may even have been more impressive. The fact that he's a rookie makes me think he could be a star.

QUOTE(JimH @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 10:13 PM) There's a whole other side to this equation, and that's for people who like to come here and not listen to non stop negativity. I would feel differently if it were just now, i.e. these last two weeks. It's been the whole damn season. Those who have an opposing viewpoint have as much right to express it as he does. I am here a lot and since Feb. 2003 I have about 6500 posts. He's been here a year and a half less and has 1.5 times as many. Maybe when people dominate the board and post non stop, criticism will get flung their way. Just an observation. The majority of his posts are in game threads where totals add up quickly. I don't think its fair to say he dominates the board. The fact is he watches or is paying attention to just about every game, and is usually commenting on it. People don't have to read his posts. They can put him on ignore, but he was the one who did call this collapse. I don't think its right to criticize people for being correct. Its not his fault the Sox keep losing winnable games.

QUOTE(Harry&JimmyRocked @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 10:11 PM) the funniest s*** is the fact that ozzie is saying he'll retire if the sox win the world series. He should retire right now.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 10:00 PM) How so? I didn't see the play, but wasn't Widger on first base? And BTW, I thought also that Widger should have been pinch ran for. Someone needs to tell Ozzie we have an extended bench. I'm thinking a pinch runner who is going to steal second. If he's thrown out, Crede with 5 career walk off homers is leading off the ninth.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 09:26 PM) I'll tell you fathom, publicly, right here and right now. Every time you bash this team, and say they are not going to make the playoffs, you turn around and say "please don't question how much I root for the Sox". f*** that. You know, if you did, you'd say something positive once in a while. 95% of your posts are about what is wrong... but we're supposed to believe that you're all Sox, all the time? I have trouble with that, and I know others do, which is what gets us into these conversations. I *WILL* question you based on your history here. Sorry, but that's the truth, and I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm getting tired of people laying into fathom and questioning his loyalty to the Sox. First off, if he wasn't a Sox fan he wouldn't have over 10,000 posts on a whitesox message board. The guy is a fan,and a very knowlegable one at that. Jerry Reinsdorf was on Channel 11 several months ago, and he stated he always thought negatively about things when they went wrong, and I don't think you could question his loyalty. He was going nuts tonight when the Sox failed to capitalize on their chances, and when they eventually blew it. John Paxson was in is box and when Jones ripped the 2 run double to make it 4-1, he knew JR well enough to start heading home. Fathom is the same way, as are many others including myself. Anyway, my point is if you don't like what fathom has to say, put him on ignore, it will only be your loss.

I just got back in the game, can someone tell me why Widger wasn't pinch run for with a guy who could steal second in the 8th. The run would have scored on Crede's single.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 04:45 PM) You're going to hear a lot of b****ing from Hawk tonight if this lineup struggles. That would be refreshing.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 04:40 PM) He's done this at least the last couple times Santana has shut us out. You know...I wonder what righties would be hitting against Santana if you could exlude the White Sox. The OPS is about .150 higher for lefties as well. Maybe a couple of his pitches will find a bat tonight.

Righties are hitting .203 against Santana and lefties .260. Looks like Ozzie is applying the same philosophy he uses with his relief pitchers to the line-up now.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 03:35 PM) How ass backwards would that be? Hawk goes out of his way to praise the likes of JP Howell, Scott Elarton, Kysle Loshe instead of taking the offense to task, then speaks his mind when they are up against a bona fide Cy Young contender. I don't buy it. Because they keep doing the same thing over and over again against Santana. I imagine he wants to stack the line-up with lefties to take away Santana's change.

Ozzie said at Soxfest that the White Sox would win the division. This was at a time when Willie Harris was the starting secondbaseman, and the guy Ozzie himself called the team MVP a month and a half ago wasn't part of the organization.If winning 91 or 95 games is good enough to win the division or if the number is 80 like San Diego that's fine. If the number of wins needed to win the division is 96 or more, and you have 95 you have failed. Managers basing their performance on the number of wins, and not championships or playoff appearances is akin to players only caring about their individual stats. Ozzie also said a month or so ago when the Sox still had a double digit lead that if they didn't win it was his fault. So it appears Ozzie really has not matured much from when he was here as a player. He can talk the talk when things are going fine, but when trouble hits his tune changes. This is not a trait of a great manager.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 22, 2005 -> 01:53 PM) Better suggestion would be to trade him to a team desperate for a leadoff hitter. I know it won't happen, but a lot of teams might overpay for him. If they gave KW a #2 pencil they would be overpaying for him.