Dick Allen

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:53 PM) Thanks. Edit: since this was posted, hasn't everyone been saying the offer isn't that great? I think it's gamesmanship. No one except the Orioles and White Sox know what the offer is. But if it isn't strong, would the Orioles really be considering it? I'm pretty sure if there was a deal, there would be a player or two, everyone would say wow, that's not exactly not a strong offer.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:49 PM) Can you direct me to this? The only thing I've seen the past day is that the package isn't that great. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...1214-story.html

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:41 PM) Correct, and that's why it has been so unpopular. Like 95% of people is saying it isn't worth the risk. On the other hand, I haven't read a single person indicate that it would guarantee the white sox sign him, yet that is the direction you have chosen to beat with a giant stick into this thread for hours. Can we move on? I am just saying that it doesn't improve their odds, and if you follow White Sox history, does indicate, they really aren't committed to being the highest bidder, which, for Manny Machado, is the death knell to their chances. Paulie didn't get the most money even after the WS, Buerhle didn't get the most money and then when he did get a great offer from Miami, they told him to take it. They seem to expect guys think playing for them is like going to Disneyland and play for less. Maybe for a guy that has been around for a while that could work, but not a guy that is there for one season. And, everyone tries to qualify that, well as long as they don't give up much...that isn't going to happen either. So moving on would be deleting the entire thread. I read most of the "experts" out there, many who know Machado, many who know more MLB players than me, and the vast majority of them don't get it either. But Rick Hahn said it, and he currently is on a shrine, so it must be true. If the White Sox do make the trade and give up an impressive package as Gonzalez wrote, and Machado leaves with the Sox getting nothing, someone should be held accountable. Would you agree with that?

Until this came up, I have never read one post on this board discussing the advantages of trading prospects for prospective free agents to better position you to sign them in a year. Not when the Sox were trying to win, when it would at least make a little sense, and certainly not during a rebuild and a season where they aren't going to win.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:24 PM) Now you’re just being purposely obtuse. Every single person in favor of acquiring him now also realizes we must match whatever offer he eventually gets. No one is suggesting a discount, yet you keep reverting back to this point. Letting him develop a bond with our coaches & players may create a tie-breaker if the financials are equal. I don’t know how else to explain this. Then tell me why if the White Sox offered the exact same money as the Yankees and Dodgers, the teams you mentioned, he most assuredly would sign with one of them if he didn't play for the White Sox in 2018, but if he did play for the White Sox, the same means he would stay?

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:20 PM) Was just coming to post that would have been a nice deal for the Sox. Oh is my bet to be closer I think Nate Jones will close.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:17 PM) 100% this. No one here is saying it’s a slam dunk, it definitely wouldn’t be. It’s about improving their odds. You increase your chances tenfold when you buy 10 powerball tickets, yet it still doesn't work out most of the time.

QUOTE (SonofaRoache @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) No one has said there wont be a battle. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. What we are saying is our odds go from probably 5 percent to 75 percent if he does like it here AND we pay him. If we wait for him to be a FA we have to hope he just really wants to be here for no apparent reason over other teams that are more attractive. 5 percent to 75 percent? What do you base that on? I am of the belief if the White Sox offer him a $320 million next November the chances of him signing with him playing here for a year or not, are pretty much the same. In some ways, it might even be better if he didn't come here and lose, and they could sell him on all the young talent and adding him...If he was already here and some of the talent was here and they weren't winning, which is hard to imagine with what the pitching staff is most likely going to look like, it would look almost hopeless.

QUOTE (SonofaRoache @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:09 PM) What sound strategy have the White Sox used to attract big named MLB proven talent to sign in FA? Teams like the Sox aren't going to win FA battles often for eite talent. We end up having to trade for damaged goods and old has beens. The Sox have to get creative in finding ways to bring young elite talent here. Those guys you listed are not elite or young talents we want for the next 10 years. So you answered the question. There is still going to be a FA battle for Machado. This exercise is not creative, it's destructive. You lessen your talent pool in 2019 so you can show a player how nice you are for a season. Then another team will come along and show how much nicer they actually are by offering more money, and you will be worse off than you are now.

QUOTE (SonofaRoache @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:01 PM) It's not a slam dunk at all. What is close to a slam dunk is if he does like it here and we pay up, he will more than like re-sign. Whereas if he isn't here, and he's deciding simply on money and perception, we'd probably not even get a seriously look. If this strategy is so sound, how come it is hardly ever used? Not by the White Sox, not by anyone. Bartolo Colon, Andruw Jones, Kevin Youkilis are a few guys the Sox picked up with a year or so on their deals. I know they tried to bring Colon and Youk back, but it didn't seem to work. Those guys went to other teams, where they had never played before. Luckily they didn't give up anything of significance for their services. That will be different in this case. A whiff is going to hurt, and the White Sox with a $300 million + free agent are like Adam Dunn with an 0-2 count vs. Randy Johnson in his prime.

Everyone has different experiences working or playing or eating or being in the same places. What makes it a slam dunk that Machado's experience would be so great the White Sox would be in the front of the line.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:25 PM) So just got to outbid the Yankees & Dodgers, two teams with unlimited amounts of money, by $65M or so! Seems like a flawless strategy! The flawed strategy is trading away assets for his services for a meaningless season thinking that will spur him to sign with the team. No one on this board would love to see Manny Machado in a White Sox uniform more than me. But in 2019.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:08 PM) What were the market dynamics at that time? Who else was involved in the bidding? How much extra did the Mariners have to offer? Yankees, Dodgers, same as the teams you worry about. Seattle gave him the best contract. That is what the White Sox will have to do with Machado, whether he plays the 2018 season for them or not.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 12:27 PM) Robinson Cano has actually outplayed his contract so far with the Mariners. He's been worth more than what he's being paid. That could turn around in the next few seasons, but so far that's not the issue. The issue was that the team signing him wasn't competitive with him, and convinced themselves they could be incorrectly. And amazingly he signed with Seattle without ever playing there.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 12:18 PM) What teams have traditionally signed all the major free agents? Pretty sure you’ll notice a trend. That’s not to say we can’t sign a major free agent, but trying to sign a generational talent like Machado will be an uphill battle given the demand and players involved. I’m willing to give up a small package of talent now if my odds increase significantly. Yes, I have noticed the teams that pay the most money sign the most and best free agents.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:35 AM) It's the weirdest logic I've seen. Money & contract details is 99% of it. If the Sox aren't planning on making/matching the best offer they have no chance at him whether he plays half a season here or not. I agree. With very few exceptions, it's always about the money. And I don't blame them a bit. There are a lot of MLB cities I could be very happy in if I had $300 million + coming my way. Ironically, Albert Belle left the White Sox to go to where Machado would be coming from after 2 years with in White Sox culture. Got paid more money.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:26 AM) I'll still offer them a trade of all the money back after ARod's opt out in exchange for them giving up the 2009 world series title. Do you think they take it? I think they could have re-allocated the funds and probably still have won.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:29 AM) Better be a hell of a presentation if it can convey a human connection as well S six to eight months with actual people would. And I’m not sure Turner is going to prevent the Dodgers from pursuing a generational talent. How do teams including the White Sox ever sign free agents if they need to play with them for a season to get the lay of the land? Won't these other teams you are worrying about have the same issue?

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:21 AM) If you're locking him up for 10 years 300+ million there's no opt out. It would probably be a dealbreaker for me. Having an opt out at say 28 would be brutal. He'd almost assuredly take it and would leave the Sox holding all the downside risk on the deal and none of the upside. These opt outs are poison pills. They are also godsends to ownership if they can help themselves. When Belle opted out, huge favor to JR, when ARod opted out, Yankees would have loved to have passed, same with Sabatthia. Give Machado an opt out after his age 30 or 31 season. And then have the discipline to let him play his declining seasons, even if he has a couple of decent ones in him, somewhere else. And reallocate the funds.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:13 AM) This I agree with. They have to be prepared to match any offer or at least offer fair market value like bmags implies (say $350M). If they’re expecting a discount they shouldn’t waste their time & prospects. I don’t believe they’re expecting a discount though. The White Sox MO has been not paying the top price but relying on the selling job and signing players for a little less. Albert Belle was an exception. Not many others, if any. That's why I assume the hey check us out, see how nice we are, attempt, would be an attempt to get a top of the line player at a discount price, because hey aren't we nice?

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:14 AM) If a deal for Machado does go down today or this weekend and the Sox end up getting him, there could be an explosion on the board. I've been checking in every 30 minutes or so half expecting the error message pop up saying the site is too busy. At the very least, it would be fun to see him play in 2018. But if they do get him and don't re-sign him, or eventually flip him for prospects at least as highly thought of as the ones they give up, I'm with Balta, heads need to roll.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:09 AM) Hypothetically they could move Seager to 2B. Really would not put that past the Dodgers. I think the Dodgers would be more inclined to go after Harper.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:04 AM) There are other teams that plan on offering him the most cash as well. He’s going to be one of the most desired free agents in baseball history. I can’t believe you think it’s as simple as offering the most money when the Yankees & Dodgers will be involved. There will be multiple teams that likely end up in the same basic range by the end of the process. Again, his decision will likely come down to non-financial considerations. Our best bet of landing Machado is to form a bond with the player (this is more than just culture) and then be prepared to match any offer he receives. If we go in without that benefit, landing him is going to be an uphill battle. I can't believe you think having him play a non competitive season for the team will help the White Sox cause. The Dodgers have Seager and Turner at SS and 3B. The Yankees may or may not be in the market for a 3B next season. If the White Sox want to sign the player, they are going to have to offer him the most attractive deal. He can talk to Ricky Renteria during negotiations. They can put together a presentation.

Does Machado not like the culture in Baltimore?

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 10:35 AM) Yep they were an exciting team with a lot of exposure and IIRC, the deal he took was worth more over first few years than others offered. Instead of using Cespedes as an example, JUpton is a better one. And he re-negotiated. It isn't obvious he would have been paid more elsewhere. JR has to go at this like he did with Albert Belle. He asked what it would take, Belle's camp told him, he said OK. At this point players>money.