Dick Allen

QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) The criticism of JR and of the White Sox is unwarranted. There is no proven correlation between spending on free agents and a team's success. There have been bad moves like Shields and LaRoach, but there have been some good transactions like Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and Sale. JR has spent enormous money on the White Sox and on the Bulls. MJ had the largest player Contract in history. There is a LOT of luck involved in Sports from Drafting players, trades and in the way the ball bounces in games. I am sick and tired of the hand wringing and the finger pointing. Mistakes have been made but baseball is just a game, so there s nothing earth shattering about that. As a Sox fan, just try to look forward to some changes and additions to the team for next season. 29 other teams will be trying to do the same thing. I remember about this time in 2003 when Sox fans were all down and depressed. Things turned around quickly and that can happen again. Cespedes would have helped, but would it have been enough? All others, no. The White Sox are currently paying the price for their development failures of the last 10-15 years. Eventually it catches up to you, now they have to play catch up. While most of the minor league teams sucked, there definitely is more talent in the minor leagues than there has been in the recent past.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 10:58 AM) And you're going to of course focus on the exact words, I'm sure. Yes I am because what you said is false. I don't think effort is a problem with this team. They rarely roll over and die. The talent level was short. Especially with injuries. They are so thin, they cannot overcome injuries to average players.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 10:17 AM) And one of their best players publicly coming out and saying they don't work hard enough? Can you link me to that quote. Don't waste your time. There isn't a quote out there that states the White Sox don't work hard enough.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:55 AM) If anyone else had been given a shot for five years and this had been the result, you bet I'd want them fired too, and they'd deserve it. Instead I'm supposed to be thankful the team is so fearless. We will see what they do about the roster and I'll take what I can get, but it isn't the only problem. Fearless was a bit much, I would agree with that, but it is possible Robin is pretty good with a decent roster. I don't think anyone was expecting 85 wins in 2012. Another thing to remember is as long as KW, RH and JR are calling the personnel shots, it appears whoever is the manager most will eventually be pissed at. And they are going nowhere.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:39 AM) "I did a terrible job. In response, I should do the exact same thing. It'll work better next time." White Sox, pre-2016. Why are people like me annoyed? Because we're expecting the exact same thing pre-2017, and keeping the manager despite all the locker room issues that spilled out into the public eye this year fits with that expectation perfectly. Yeah the locker room issues. Started out 23-10 after the LaRoche thing. After Sale cut up the uniforms, they won the next 4 games. Apparently they need more locker room issues.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:34 AM) Or, like many of us, you can criticize them all. Robin did not SINGLE-HANDEDLY swing the binary outcome of the Sox making the playoffs or not. That does not mean we should want him to keep managing the team. I don't know what's so difficult about this. And I don't see what's so difficult about not holding him the fall guy, and getting on to the problem with the roster. Apparently, they like how Robin handles the team during the time we don't see. Again, if they hired Joe Maddon or anyone else when they hired Robin, and they had the exact same rosters, every single one of them would be considered an idiot right now.

The front office is blaming itself. They won't fire themselves, but then again, who does? Besides, maybe Robin says no, they hire Dave Martinez, call it an offseason and win the pennant next year.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:19 AM) I don't get why you think Nightengale is correct. If the manager serves such little purpose in your eyes, then why even have one? Just have a guy make a lineup and you're good. I think MLB managers have much more of an impact on teams than you think. No, I don't think anything is ALL Robin's fault, as we've dealt with injuries and poor performance from players and whatnot, but you certainly cannot act as if he had no effect. The manager serves a purpose, but if the roster is short, they don't win. Look at all of them. They have all managed horrible seasons when they didn't have the talent. If you think the Sox have had the talent the last 4 years, then yes, blame Robin but praise the talent evaluation of RH, KW and JR and Buddy Bell, all the way down.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:07 AM) I don't get how that's possible unless you sell. There aren't many buying options out there, and other teams will be able to easily outbid us. They are going to sell. But they are going to get more than just prospects back. Besides, if it's the manager's fault this team isn't winning, how much would they really have to tinker with the roster? Nightengale pointed out it didn't matter who was making out the line up card the last 4 years, the Sox weren't making the playoffs, and he is correct. I would imagine Robin would choose to return, but if he does not, at least we know they are blaming themselves for this and something will be done about it.

The roster is going to look a lot different. That is what they are saying with this stance.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 03:03 PM) So, sure. Avi Garcia is bad, but he's not 100% the reason that the sox have had a losing season. We should make sure he's still part of the team next year. Matt Albers was bad, but he wasn't 100% the reason the team was bad this year, he should be in the bullpen forever. James Shields is bad, but, so was everyone, it's ridiculous to think removing him will help. It doesn't matter how you perform, so long as everyone around you is bad too. Then you can't complain! Players you change. That is far more effective than swapping out a manager. Again, Joe Maddon, Mike Scoscia, whatever, with this roster, and how the injuries shook out, they all would be fools. Again, if the Sox were ever going to make a change, this seems like the time to do it. It just doesn't upset me that it appears they won't do it like it does most others. I'd rather have them blame players and change them.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 02:51 PM) If this is false, I feel like this is the 3-4 time this season Nightengale has been fed contradictory info. I wonder if he stops using his source. He said in his story contract negotiations had yet to commence. So there is nothing contradictory about Hayes' tweet.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 02:47 PM) So, Dick, just to be clear, your main thrust is that there is no way to ever judge whether a manager is good, either by record or by his choices on the field, so we should never fire a manager, correct? No, but the outrage is laughable. If you think the Sox don't have the talent to compete, how do you blame the record on the manager? If you think the Sox should be in the playoffs with what they have, then yes, the manager should be fired. I just don't think Shields and Ranaudo and Danks and Albers, and Shuck and Avi not to mention other below average guys, are Robin Ventura's fault. When people are excited about Tyler Saladino, and want him as a regular, it is an indication the talent level is short. I don't think there is a manager managing or a manager in waiting coaching right now that would have had the 2016 White Sox in the playoffs.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 02:35 PM) Ugh, no one is arguing that managers have more of an impact than players. People are just stating that managers have some impact and that the team could improve some with a better manager. There's no doubt in my mind this team is better with Maddon, whether that's one game or four. And if it's one game or four, guess what, if he took the job in 2012 like Robin, he would be on his 4th consecutive below .500 season. He would be deemed an idiot who has to go. I was around when Tony LaRussa was around. Hawk was not an idiot in 1986 for canning him. Then his firing was one of the biggest blunders ever when LaRussa won with a roster just about anyone could win with. If Maddon had zoo animals and karaoke at Sox spring training with 3 consecutive losing seasons, his act wouldn't be genius, it would be a clown show. Ozzie's first game I think Koch blew a save. He said he told the team to go out and get drunk. People laughed. He says that in 2011, there would have been outrage. When you win, everything you do is looked at positively. When you lose, those same moves are idiotic.

QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 02:21 PM) Does the Sox brass live in a different reality than we do because I've seen 4 years of bad baseball and nothing has really improved one season to the next. The Sox are just as bad as they were in 2011. What is the reality? Is this a playoff team with the right manager? I know you can answer both, but if you could only choose one, would you rather the Sox blame the manager or players and make changes to only one? Believe me, I get people want him out. But the calls of ticket sale drops seems laughable. The team has actually played pretty well at home this year. The ticket base has witnessed more victories. I doubt there will be a meaningful drop no matter who manages. If they trade their better players away, that will have a much larger effect than the manager IMO. Robin said he wanted to come back a few weeks ago. I don't see how that changes, but some people who probably should know more than me think it's a possibility if not a probability.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 02:13 PM) On the field, I have read that even the best managers equate to 2-3 more wins. I think off the field is where Maddon is a genius, as he completely turned the culture of that team around. Switch rosters and let's see who the idiot is.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 02:04 PM) I don't think Maddon would have allowed for the s*** show with Sale, Eaton, LaRoche to occur Didn't he get into it with one of his starters? Sale cutting jerseys is on him, not anyone else. And according to RH at the season ticketholder event I was at, RV went ballistic on him, and RH said Sale will never do anything like that again. He said Robin's strength is also considered his weakness. He keeps the stuff in house. There can be a case for replacing him, but putting any blame on him for that incident is ridiculous. And the other s*** show as you call it? Didn't they start out 23-10?

QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 02:02 PM) The Sox certainly wouldn't be nearly as good as the Cubs, but I think the team would have a direction. A manager that isn't afraid to fail. Can manage outside of the box. Can show the strengths and deficiencies of the players and use or avoid them as such. Joe Maddon hasn't won a damn thing yet, so I'm not ready to anoint him as the end-all, be-all, but either he or Bochy and maybe a couple of others could have a +4 WAR with this team. But who knows. Maybe they DID have the horses to win? If Maddon can mean that many wins, I wonder how the 2014 Rays lost 85 games, and his first 2 seasons they lost 198. Players win games. The team was short. Robin has been around, his contract is up, they haven't won, it does seem like a time to move on, but, at least they aren't blaming the manager for not winning. There are going to be some drastic changes to the roster.

Joe Maddon could be managing this squad and they would have finished in 4th place. Some people want the Sox to hire Dave Martinez. If Dave Martinez was managing the 2016 White Sox and Robin Ventura was sitting next to Joe Maddon, how different would their records be than they are now? I just think since his contract is up it would be a time to try something new. I do like the fact they aren't pinning the losing on him. That should be refreshing. The fact is, if the players don't change, whoever manages this team will eventually be an idiot.

I like Robin, but I'm a bit surprised.

A bag of signed Jose Fernandez baseballs, also containing his checkbook, washed up on the shore yesterday about a mile from the accident.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 26, 2016 -> 11:21 PM) My god was that place empty. 13k attendance. Upper deck and outfield were essentially bare. Was very weird to see/hear, as it was also very quiet (understandably) The upper deck was closed.

When they aren't going anywhere, I hit the doldrums in August, but once September hits, I get a second wind. No baseball for 6 months gets me excited to watch meaningless for the White Sox games.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 25, 2016 -> 02:58 PM) Amazing what happens when he throws his curve It is all about command with him. When he has it, he is pretty much unhittable.

Robby with 6 k's in 2 innings this series. The stuff is still there.