Dick Allen

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 07:09 AM) Maddon helped the Cubs win 6 extra games or so. Savvy trades for Rizzo, Arieta, Hendricks, Russell and a closer nabbed in Rule V were worth a lot more wins. And not a "proven veteran" among them, Kenny Williams. Lester, Lackey, Zobrist, Heyward, Chapman, Fowler, Coughlan. Yeah, no hero worshipping.

QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 07:14 PM) <!--quoteo(post=3429649:date=Sep 29, 2016 -> 01:00 PM:name=Black_Jack29)-->QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 01:00 PM) <!--quotec-->Uh, yeah, that's it. Ticket revenue doesn't matter when running a sports franchise. $35 million dollars is chump change. You've obviously never run a business before. If you knew anything about business, you'd know that net worth includes non-cash assets, such as his financial stakes in the Sox and Bulls. The idea that Reinsdorf is an old miser when his franchise is near the bottom 20% of the league in attendance, but in the top half in payroll is silly. The idea that he should dump his own personal savings into the team's payroll is equally silly. It actually benefits Reinsdorf to have lower attendance. "The Sox also must pay a fee on each ticket sold in excess of 1.93 million in paid attendance. Since 2008, the Sox have paid that fee only in 2010, when games drew 2.2 million fans. However, the Sox were allowed to apply a credit based on the taxes the team paid that year, reducing the ticket fee payment from $455,974 to $95,531. "The White Sox didn't have that much of an incentive to really pack the place," Sanderson said." http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-sox-...0521-story.html so 270,000 tickets at about $25 each isn't worth selling because of a $95,000 tax hit?

Sale is pitching Sunday. Saladino out the remainder of,the season with a back problem.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 04:59 PM) I agree, all across the board......100% There are two ways to look at it... 1) Does the current ownership fall victim to living in a town where they got a terrible luck of the draw? that despite bringing a WS to the city, they still play second fiddle? or 2) Did the current ownership completely drop the ball by not being able to capitalize on being the only MLB team in this town win a title in 100 yrs? The 79-83 2005 Cubs outdrew the world champs by 750,000 The 66-96 2006 Cubs outdrew the defending world champs by about 100,000.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) Also choked down the stretch and have been terrible ever since. Not really. Paulie got hurt. Youk got hurt. Sale ran out of gas. 12 rookie pitchers. It just wasn't to be.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 01:53 PM) At the end of the day, the White Sox are a product and Nightengale just blamed the f***ing customers. This is akin to blaming patrons for not coming to a restaurant when the food isn't good. It's just a product to consume, and if the people around this organization don't appreciate what isn't exactly a cheap proposition for entertainment, and aren't willing to provide a product worth consuming, then they can go f*** themselves. Dick, if the manager isn't to be blamed for having a lack of talent then I see absolutely zero reason to tender an offer to Robin. I still ask you - what has he DONE to warrant your support? The team plays hard. The players seem to like playing for him. I don't think it's a must he return, I just don't think it's this huge deal, no chance to win thing if he's here. They did win 85 games in 2012 with him at the helm.

QUOTE (shipps @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:49 PM) DA knows exactly what you are saying. He probably agrees with it but he is obsessed with playing the devils advocate for some reason. No. I do understand the frustration, I am frustrated myself, but just because something isn't done when you have no idea what was offered, doesn't mean they are happy with where they are at. For all we know, what was available at the deadline would have only made for more mediocrity. The same guys will still be available, and there will be changes. Who knows, all this griping about Robin may be about nothing. Perhaps he doesn't want to return. Maybe he is sick of it. Maybe his family gets a lot of crap. There are reasons I suppose he could decide he doesn't want to do this anymore. What is weird is Robin said he would wait until after the season. Hahn is supposedly having a press conference on Monday to discuss things like changes. There supposedly have been zero negotiations. It's starting to look like Robin is walking away.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:45 PM) I know they traded Duke. It was such an inconsequential move that I didn't feel it was worth mentioning. Chris Sale was not the only player who might have been traded. I said this like 200 posts ago, it's about messaging. Rick Hahn said the team was mired in mediocrity, and the next week he sent the message that he was just fine with that. Whatever they're doing with this Robin story, if they bring him back, they're sending that message again. Fearlessly. I know you say they are gonna clean house on the roster, but I'll judge next offseason when it's over. This is a bad start. No he didn't. There is no way the roster won't be significantly changed.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:35 PM) I'll note, I asked specifically if you thought they would give Robin Ventura a 3 year deal, I asked if you were ok with the pitching coach staying on for 3 years, and whether or not keeping a manager on 1 year deals was consistent with a longer term view as described in that quote. You answered none of those questions. I don't really care about the manager and coaches contracts. I am surprised they aren't necessarily making a change. I thought they would, but if they did, and all it involved was switching McEwing or Renteria into the managerial role, I don't see how that is much different than what it is today. The most important thing is the roster. If Joe Maddon had to play JB Shuck every day and had to bring Matt Albers into the game after Arrieta went 5 innings, his petting zoo and karaoke spring training would be hammered backwards and forwards.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:31 PM) A week later, they did nothing at the trade deadline. Whatever the reasons, they did nothing. If you want another case where the message coming out of the front office was inconsistent with its actions - and it seems that's all we've gotten lately - there you go. I don't believe anything they say anymore, from KW on down they have completely devalued their words. They traded Duke. Neither of the 2 top prospects people said Boston had to give the Sox for Sale were available and it went from, if they don't give them to you, then they don't get Sale, to trade Sale now, we must get rid of Sale. Teams get better all the time when they trade their ace.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:23 PM) And I'll start believing it when they do something along those lines. Let's look for evidence that they're actually willing to do that, to look longer-term. Bringing back a manager on a 1 year deal when the fanbase has turned against him would be the exact opposite of a "longer-term view", wouldn't you agree? A "longer-term view" would mean you'd want a coaching staff in place that you could expect would be there in 3-4 years even if things continue to go wrong. Are they going to give Ventura a 3+ year deal again? Are you ok with keeping the same pitching coach for the next 3-4 years? Yeah, they should do what the fanbase says. LMAO. No one here had a blueprint to a championship last winter. The fanbase got what they wanted in 1986 when Hawk launched LaRussa. Then years later they caulfielded and couldn't believe anyone could be such a dumbass and fire him. If somehow, and I really don't know how, they can stack their roster, Robin will become a lot smarter.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:17 PM) Fair point although there are some important differences. One is that the Sox had winning seasons in two of the three previous seasons before 2003 (they had a .500 season in the other one),and made the playoffs in 2000... two they had what was regarded as one of the top minor league systems in all of baseball. Three was that they already had on the big league roster young players who were showing they were capable of being very good at the major league level. I don't know if you can make the same claims about the franchise today as they get ready to head into 2017. Anything can happen but if it does it appears to me to be more the result of catching lightning in a bottle than any real plan. Mark You put too much stock in 82-80 vs. 79-83. If you were expecting to contend, they are equal failures. Those teams in 2003 and 2004 had a lot more talent than the current team that is trotted out there. Offensively, there is no comparison.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) And top to bottom, the organization is ok with that. As long as they can come in at the end of year evaluations and say they did their best, they shouldn't be evaluated on wins and losses. The manager, the coaching staff, the front office, all agree. No they are not. But cherry pick stories and embellish to try to fit your narrative. Explain this quote if everything is A-OK "We're mired in mediocrity," Hahn said. "That's not the goal. That's not acceptable. … The goal was to put ourselves in a situation to win a championship, and (being) stuck at .500 or around .500 doesn't do that. "We may well have to adjust and take a longer-term view and take a different approach going forward."

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Sep 27, 2016 -> 09:28 PM) It is usually in the winter, they moved it for some reason They switched with Homeland. I guess there was some delay with Homeland.

QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) The criticism of JR and of the White Sox is unwarranted. There is no proven correlation between spending on free agents and a team's success. There have been bad moves like Shields and LaRoach, but there have been some good transactions like Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and Sale. JR has spent enormous money on the White Sox and on the Bulls. MJ had the largest player Contract in history. There is a LOT of luck involved in Sports from Drafting players, trades and in the way the ball bounces in games. I am sick and tired of the hand wringing and the finger pointing. Mistakes have been made but baseball is just a game, so there s nothing earth shattering about that. As a Sox fan, just try to look forward to some changes and additions to the team for next season. 29 other teams will be trying to do the same thing. I remember about this time in 2003 when Sox fans were all down and depressed. Things turned around quickly and that can happen again. Cespedes would have helped, but would it have been enough? All others, no. The White Sox are currently paying the price for their development failures of the last 10-15 years. Eventually it catches up to you, now they have to play catch up. While most of the minor league teams sucked, there definitely is more talent in the minor leagues than there has been in the recent past.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 10:58 AM) And you're going to of course focus on the exact words, I'm sure. Yes I am because what you said is false. I don't think effort is a problem with this team. They rarely roll over and die. The talent level was short. Especially with injuries. They are so thin, they cannot overcome injuries to average players.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 10:17 AM) And one of their best players publicly coming out and saying they don't work hard enough? Can you link me to that quote. Don't waste your time. There isn't a quote out there that states the White Sox don't work hard enough.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:55 AM) If anyone else had been given a shot for five years and this had been the result, you bet I'd want them fired too, and they'd deserve it. Instead I'm supposed to be thankful the team is so fearless. We will see what they do about the roster and I'll take what I can get, but it isn't the only problem. Fearless was a bit much, I would agree with that, but it is possible Robin is pretty good with a decent roster. I don't think anyone was expecting 85 wins in 2012. Another thing to remember is as long as KW, RH and JR are calling the personnel shots, it appears whoever is the manager most will eventually be pissed at. And they are going nowhere.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:39 AM) "I did a terrible job. In response, I should do the exact same thing. It'll work better next time." White Sox, pre-2016. Why are people like me annoyed? Because we're expecting the exact same thing pre-2017, and keeping the manager despite all the locker room issues that spilled out into the public eye this year fits with that expectation perfectly. Yeah the locker room issues. Started out 23-10 after the LaRoche thing. After Sale cut up the uniforms, they won the next 4 games. Apparently they need more locker room issues.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:34 AM) Or, like many of us, you can criticize them all. Robin did not SINGLE-HANDEDLY swing the binary outcome of the Sox making the playoffs or not. That does not mean we should want him to keep managing the team. I don't know what's so difficult about this. And I don't see what's so difficult about not holding him the fall guy, and getting on to the problem with the roster. Apparently, they like how Robin handles the team during the time we don't see. Again, if they hired Joe Maddon or anyone else when they hired Robin, and they had the exact same rosters, every single one of them would be considered an idiot right now.

The front office is blaming itself. They won't fire themselves, but then again, who does? Besides, maybe Robin says no, they hire Dave Martinez, call it an offseason and win the pennant next year.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:19 AM) I don't get why you think Nightengale is correct. If the manager serves such little purpose in your eyes, then why even have one? Just have a guy make a lineup and you're good. I think MLB managers have much more of an impact on teams than you think. No, I don't think anything is ALL Robin's fault, as we've dealt with injuries and poor performance from players and whatnot, but you certainly cannot act as if he had no effect. The manager serves a purpose, but if the roster is short, they don't win. Look at all of them. They have all managed horrible seasons when they didn't have the talent. If you think the Sox have had the talent the last 4 years, then yes, blame Robin but praise the talent evaluation of RH, KW and JR and Buddy Bell, all the way down.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:07 AM) I don't get how that's possible unless you sell. There aren't many buying options out there, and other teams will be able to easily outbid us. They are going to sell. But they are going to get more than just prospects back. Besides, if it's the manager's fault this team isn't winning, how much would they really have to tinker with the roster? Nightengale pointed out it didn't matter who was making out the line up card the last 4 years, the Sox weren't making the playoffs, and he is correct. I would imagine Robin would choose to return, but if he does not, at least we know they are blaming themselves for this and something will be done about it.

The roster is going to look a lot different. That is what they are saying with this stance.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 03:03 PM) So, sure. Avi Garcia is bad, but he's not 100% the reason that the sox have had a losing season. We should make sure he's still part of the team next year. Matt Albers was bad, but he wasn't 100% the reason the team was bad this year, he should be in the bullpen forever. James Shields is bad, but, so was everyone, it's ridiculous to think removing him will help. It doesn't matter how you perform, so long as everyone around you is bad too. Then you can't complain! Players you change. That is far more effective than swapping out a manager. Again, Joe Maddon, Mike Scoscia, whatever, with this roster, and how the injuries shook out, they all would be fools. Again, if the Sox were ever going to make a change, this seems like the time to do it. It just doesn't upset me that it appears they won't do it like it does most others. I'd rather have them blame players and change them.