Dick Allen

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:27 PM) I'll stop, lest I become a pest in this thread. Just remember, Greg was against the move. File it under "he didn't like it." It's Flowers and Soto. Just keep that in mind. They were fine as a tandem, but still extremely mediocre.

A couple of veterans who have had success and played for good teams on one year cheap contracts. Unless you have Posey or Martin or McCann or maybe Cervelli, it's a pretty good idea to maximize an industry wide weak position, and not have the money spent hurt you elsewhere.

QUOTE (spiderman @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:17 AM) How does Alvarez grade out defensively at 3B? Take Conor Gillaspie and go 2 or 3 levels below.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:02 AM) Lots of good points being made in here: Looking forward to seeing how a strict platoon will go. It seems weird that the very first thing the Sox did was jettison their decent catching tandem for a different decent catching tandem, but ultimately it's whatever. I would say a couple things regarding catcher defense. One, a catcher's caught stealing numbers have just as much to do with who's on the mound as with the catcher himself. Only the best throwers can overcome slow deliveries to limit the running game. I rarely look at catcher CS numbers because I feel like there's too much else going on. Two, to the guys saying "lol pitch framing who cares," read up on it, if only because there's a lot of entertaining stuff. It is absolutely a skill and some guys are better at it than others. I'm not sure it's worth >1 WAR because the umpire and the pitcher also play a role, but read some articles about it, particularly with .gifs. Look up Jeff Sullivan's worst called strikes and balls pieces on Fangraphs. The way a catcher fields pitches absolutely affects what an umpire sees. The MLB-wide OPS is 92 points lower after an 0-1 count than a 1-0 count. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 is 350 points. Catchers can get extra strikes. And grabbing extra strikes where you can is important. Wasn't the worst strike called a ball in 2015 Samardzija pitching and Flowers catching? It was something like 2 inches from dead center but Flowers was really awkward trying to catch it as he was set up on the corner. It looked so much like a ball, even Hawk didn't complain.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 07:00 AM) Well, I know how much we like young, poor-hitting 3B... see Olt, Davidson, Gillaspie, etc. Olt, Davidson and Middlebrooks were all the coveted "top prospects" many seem to really like. When you don't get on base much without getting a hit and strike out a ton, it leads to becoming a bust. Olt looked decent in stretches. I don't think the Sox are counting on him, but see what he is in Spring Training. He did realize he had to change things, and altered his swing. As for Middlebrooks, the Sox could have had him in 2013 when the shine was coming off but not totally like it is now. They passed. I would expect them to pass again unless he has a thing for Charlotte.

For those who don't think the White Sox are or have been rebuilding, here are the players still with the team who were with the team in 2012: Sale Quintana Danks Jones

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 07:49 AM) The Sox rotation can make any catcher look good pitch framing wise. I'm not worried about the defensive downgrade at all. That has always been the argument against pitch framing. I personally think there is a bit more to it, and a skill. How much it changes games is up for debate, but I will give Flowers credit for it. He is a hard worker. The results haven't been great, but his teammates respected him. Hopefully, Navarro and Avila can make it through the year healthy and be what we are hoping them to be. At least on paper, it seems a good idea, but they have both had seasons they didn't hit .200. But even worst case scenario, you aren't behind the rest of the league too much if your catching is an offensive black hole.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 07:37 AM) Like I said in the T-Flo thread, I really like Navarro's bat, I just hope the offensive upgrade is worth the defensive downgrade. Flowers pitch framing was elite. Navarro's supposedly poor. Flowers did have a tough year behind the plate, Navarro is supposed to be decent behind the plate. This could be a good case study on the importance of pitch framing. Pitchers liked throwing to Flowers, but supposedly they like throwing to Navarro as well. All in all, it isn't an earth shattering upgrade, but perhaps change is good. Beckham, Flowers, Alexei...next year Danks and LaRoche. Avi supposedly on the block. They are running out of punching bags.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 11:33 PM) The night of the Peavy trade, when we found out which teams are involved, I said: "I'll be happy as long as we don't end up with Will Middlebrooks or Avisail Garcia." It seems pretty likely that we're about to have both at once! What is "pretty likely" based upon?

Segura is horrible offensively. It would be ironic if he was in a trade to upgrade the offense. From Hahns quotes it seems free agent not trade, but you never know.

QUOTE (pettie4sox @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 08:06 PM) This is textbook DA, he's a bonafide troll. Right,

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 08:03 PM) You touted his pitch framing more than anyone on here and always seemed like Flowers biggest supporter. You never seem to pick any side of the fence to stand on. Keep playing both sides of the fence ,Dick ! I did. I also mentioned as much in this thread. But it is Tyler Flowers. He isn't the worst player in the world, but it isn't like his loss is going to cost the team titles. I have been pointing out Flowers wasn't the biggest problem on the White Sox. He does have his positives. Not playing both sides of the fence at all. I just don't froth at the mouth saying so and so is the worst all the time. They think they have an upgrade, fine by me. If Feeky was running the team, he wouldn't have non tendered Flowers. He would have already been gone. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...;show=&st=0

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 07:53 PM) I've pretty much already addressed this in my previous comment, so I'll just link it up again. New information didn't come out. Flowers was known as a good framer when you were complaining about him. You just "change your mind" because the White Sox dumped him. A chronic whiner, now complaining Tyler Flowers is gone. In the last 2 days people have complained the White Sox are selling an organ for charity instead of having it in a glass case at a ballpark they don't go to, and now the guy who rides Flowers is complaining they let him go.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 07:47 PM) If Devin Mesoraco is the catcher, it better fricken be for LaRoche or Cabrera. Look at his contract. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...shtml#contracts Yikes that's one escalating contract! It isn't bad if he hits like 2014. If he is like every other year in his career, it would be an offensive downgrade

I think it is Navarro. 2013 the Sox were handing the keys to Flowers. I don't think not pursing him them applies today.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 07:22 PM) Fwiw, Navarra has rated as one of MLB's worst framers in the last couple of years. Flowers framing was ignored by you when you had his batting average on your mind, now it is the most important thing around. I liked his framing as much as anyone, but cmon man. It is Tyler Flowers. No one wanted to take him off Hahns hands for a 25 year old A ballet.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 07:18 PM) One thing I don't get, what is point of non-tendering now vs. waiting until the extra catcher is actually added? Would seem like we lose leverage by doing this now. Very surprised at the move and interested to see who it is. Presume Navarro but if you are going to make a statement like that and that you have someone else coming, well...why haven't they already been inked. Today was the deadline to non tender. From what it sounds like, they already have his replacement. Probably some minor things to work out before it is officially announced.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 07:13 PM) I'm sold, how is Navarro defensively? Decent. But fat catchers can lose that quickly.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 07:01 PM) They'll probably save a million or two bringing Navarro in using saved money towards another player. I agree. If he has one lined up, Navarro is the guy who clearly is the better bat. If they stay healthy, he and Avila should be fine.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 06:57 PM) Obviously early, but worth noting that the White Sox's plan so far to address the awful 2015 season has been to jettison the catching unit which was arguably middle-to-top-half-of-MLB in terms of value (depending how you feel about framing) and yet to touch 2B, 3B or corner OF which were amongst the league's worst. I'll probably feel more comfortable when the bigger picture is revealed, but it's not quite the way I would have approached things. Of course you told all of us last season Flowers wouldn't hit .200, and reminded us of that when you bumped your post when he dipped below. Now it makes no sense to you that he gets non tendered and the White Sox upgrade their offense.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 06:32 PM) No, his inability to be a better player than Beckham did that. Boni made LaRoche look good vs. LHP.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 06:32 PM) Me too haha. All I want is a catcher that can throw out a good percentage of would be base stealers and hit above .250 with some decent pop. The problem is there are very few of them. Look at Flowers minor league numbers before he showed he has a tough time hitting. I don't trust catchers minor league numbers.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 06:28 PM) Now that I look at his stats, I really want Peter O'Brien. He has major power at the catcher position. I would like Buster Posey.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 06:23 PM) If we were DFAing anyone surely it should have been Avisail Garcia. They aren't DFAing anyone.

QUOTE (flavum @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 06:23 PM) Jason Castro has been a rumored non-tender guy. Maybe a deal tonight with the Astros? Castro hit worse than Flowers IIRC.