Dick Allen

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 23, 2015 -> 07:16 AM) HA! Oh, I have, and with very good reason. The results of Jerry Reinsdorf's 35 years at the helm of this franchise have been a disaster. He has only one season during his tenure as owner that he can point to and really claim to be an exciting and successful one - '05. During the other 34 years, the team only won the division a measly four times, and the playoff appearances those four years were anything but memorable. And then we wonder why the fan base is dormant. Why we have to operate like a small market team because the team Reinsdorf routinely runs out there is not postseason caliber. That is really a horrible record of futility, no matter how you look at it. No sustainable success for three and a half decades now. Meanwhile, over the years he's publicly fought with the likes of Harry Caray, Carlton Fisk and Larry Himes while remaining unapologetically loyal to people like Kenny Williams, Buddy Bell, Robin Ventura, etc. He dumps Harry Caray and WGN in the '80s in favor of SportsVision. He hires Hawk Harrelson to be GM and ends up losing Tony LaRussa in the process. He blackmails the state of Illinois to build him a new stadium while also providing him with a sweetheart lease deal, and then turns around and directs the construction of an abysmally designed ballpark. He fires Himes who drafted Frank Thomas, Ventura, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, and who traded for Lance Johnson and Wilson Alvarez, claiming Himes got the team from "point A to point B", but he didn't think he could get the team to "point C", i.e., the World Series. In his judgement, Ron Schueler was the guy who could do that. How'd that work out for us! It could have happened in '94, except the Chairman chose his burning desire to break the players' union over the World Series aspirations of his team and fans that year. Terry Freaking Bevington! White flag trade. The list goes on and on and on with this failure. This franchise is in desperate need of new leadership, strategy and vision from the very top. That is very clear. Jerry Reinsdorf has been the owner now for 35 years, and he holds claim to a very unimpressive record of achievement. Yes, the WS championship in '05 was amazing, but that does and cannot mask the other 34 years. The White Sox need new ownership. It's that simple. LMAO.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 22, 2015 -> 07:15 PM) From 2006-2015 the White Sox are 736-760 with 1 wild card birth. You are wrong again.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ May 22, 2015 -> 07:29 PM) Sox just do not answer when teams score first. I think by the time Sox return from road trip this could get very ugly. Yeah only 13 comeback wins so far.

From 2005-2010 White Sox won at least 88 games 4 times. After 2006, attendance went down every season.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:16 PM) Even before that, fans were going to games in Boston. Long before they made three straight playoff appearances, fans were going to games. It was only a year before the White Sox won that the Red Sox ended their drought.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:14 PM) And as the stadium ages year after year, I feel like that argument can get a bit more compelling over time. The stadium is fine. The seats are a few years old. They do concrete work every year, sometimes even during the season. They are due a couple new boards soon, but they are going to be there for a while. JR's deal is too sweet.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:08 PM) We keep hearing two lousy examples. 2008 had a huge falloff in attendance for two obvious reasons. The complete debacle that was 2007 paired with the total demise that was the second half of 2006. Every study has shown the positive effects of winning a World Series wear off in 4-5 years. Exactly what happened. Not to mention the fact that sales are usually 80% a reflection of the previous season...not "in season" walk ups. That's also a huge reason 2012 was disappointing....what happened in 2011? Another complete meltdown of historic proportions where Dunn was regularly earning column space in the NY Times. Other than that, we have some evidence (but not definitive proof because of a one-team market and the Illitch ownersip anomaly that Tigers fans are "better" somehow). Meanwhile, we can point to teams like Colorado, Arizona, Seattle, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincy, KC, the Mets until this season despite a new stadium, Toronto, Baltimore and Minnesota (look at their attendance this year after four losing seasons despite being a "winner" so far). And Braves fans were notorious for not showing up in the regular season or even during the playoffs because they didn't truly believe their teams could win it all. The main outliers are TB (stadium), Cubs, Cardinals, Brewers, A's, Marlins and Tigers. (There's also zero relevance comparing us to the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Dodgers or even the Angels). So i just named 13 franchises that are very similar to us in responding to winners. On the other side of the ledger is the Brewers, Cubs, Cards and Tigers. Maybe we should hire the Brewers' entire staff, steal their stadium and move it to a more optimal location...that seems to be the only conclusion to draw. There's certainly no debating we got the very worst of all the new stadiums built in the last 25 years, unless younwant to argue Citi Field in NY. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 18, 2015 -> 10:09 PM) * Finally, how can the White Sox, after winning five in a row on the road, and having Kluber AND Sale on the mound, only draw 17,712 fans? What was wrong with the weather? Blackhawks again?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:48 PM) 2010 Cubs attendance: 3,062,973 2010 Sox attendance: 2,194,378 Difference: 868,595 Difference divided by Sox attendance = 39.5% Not sure where your 25% came from? The other thing to keep in mind is if the Sox played as many weekday day games as the Cubs played back then, their attendance would even be lower.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:41 PM) Then how do you explain the White Soc and Cubs having the exact same number of local Chicago m.s.a./local fans attending games in the 2010 season....with the only difference the 25% uptick for tourism/regional/historic site traffic that no other team other than maybe the Red Sox can count on? There is a finite number of tickets available. If you really think if no one from any other state were allowed to attend a Cubs or Sox game that their attendance figures would be close, let's just say Roger Daltry wouldn't appreciate your presence at one of his concerts.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:25 PM) No, my point is that a fanbase which fills a park constantly every single game can still be pretty down on its team. Especially when they're rotten, and it's been a while since Boston has endured multiple losing years in a row like we have. Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't people like us overreacting to this team being rotten. Maybe the problem is them being rotten. But why do they show up in Boston, but not the south side of Chicago? If you think the team is so rotten, why do you and anyone else who constantly rips anything they see, continue to spend so many hours with it? I would think there would be something more productive in your life than spending so much time with something that does nothing but bother you. Unless it makes you feel superior thinking you have all of the answers after the White Sox fail. I do notice there are several posters here that during games the Sox are winning are usually too busy to be posting, but the minute something goes wrong....they can throw up multiple posts and stay on for hours. Maybe some people just like being miserable.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:18 PM) For comparison I had to go over to a Red Sox message board just to see what they were up to. At this one, the top 2 threads are "Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y? Is the actual lineup the worst in the last 10Y?" I also went through to some of these and yup, sounds familiar. The page I hit randomly had them ripping on Middlebrooks early in a game for striking out. There's also plenty of "tear it down" talk, etc. So your point is it is OK to whine and moan about anything and everything because Boston fans do. Good for you, but it would be nice if there was some common sense used at least once in a while.

Plus, if the Bulls don't want Thibs, they can't bluff for very long.

QUOTE (Jake @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:13 PM) If you had a single team who absolutely knew they wanted Thibs over anybody else, all you have to do to get leverage is just get them to believe you will trade him elsewhere The problem is, you could only "trade" Thibs to somewhere he wants to go. There is tampering going on here as well. You aren't going to be able to fool anyone.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 22, 2015 -> 01:02 PM) You're right, for example, not many teams have moles like you that are on the payroll and blow the sunshine on the fan message boards. I'm only half kidding. Is there anything about how the Sox go about their business you'd change? There's a lot of things I would change. There are players I would rather not be on the roster, but I'm a White Sox fan and want them to do well, so they are on the team, I'm not going to go on a message board and moan about every little thing. As I stated, game threads here are comical. The White Sox can never trail or the world is coming to an end. They can never make an error. The pitcher can never give up a run. There was a 1-1 game after 4 where there was b****ing about the Sox offense AND b****ing about the pitching. Just the Sox usual line up: Eaton, there's a thread he's so bad he shouldn't lead off, Melky, there are posts he's a waste of money, Abreu, I've read a couple of posts he's basically just a tick above average, LaRoche, they need to get rid of him, he a huge problem, Avi, all he can do is crash, and crash hard. Gillaspie, he supposedly is not a major league starter, Flowers, he is brutal, and Micah/Sanchez although not a ton of complaining about Sanchez, Micah got some. So with a line up that bad, when they lose, you then have to blame the manager, oh and while your at it, fire Brooks because the crowds suck, although you say it's because the team doesn't win enough and he makes zero decisions about that. And I'm the irrational one. As I stated, I will have tickets to 40 games, with 3 parties and a bunch of other bonuses for less than it would cost me to see the Schaumburg Boomers. They have put in great effort. It's too bad people don't notice.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 22, 2015 -> 12:46 PM) If the fanbase is small, how about trying to grow it bigger? Winning helps, but there is much more marketing that can be done.The Sox marketing is awful, I'll say it again. When is the last time the Sox made national headlines for any sort of marketing ploy, failed or otherwise? We don't need a "disco demolition night" but how about a social media account that actually stirs the drink a little? How about they market more to the hispanic audience in Chicago? They have quite a few Spanish speaking players. In fact, they should have an entire division of the marketing department dedicated to spanish language promos. The Sox are a stale brand with stale ownership imo. JR has been slowly losing influence in MLB and his club hasn't been consistently entertaining for almost 30 years. I am lucky to have grown up in the "good guys wear black" years with Robin, Frank, Blackjack, Alvarez and the rest of the crew. Those teams didn't win a ton, but they were competitive and exciting and young. Kids younger than 15 don't know s*** about the Sox except that they are usually filled with declining vets and don't win much more than 85 games. Team needs a reboot from the top down. No team tries harder to sell tickets than the White Sox.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 22, 2015 -> 12:30 PM) Comparing our attendance to that of Detroit does nothing to add to what we are talking about here about our attendance problems. And apparently you are not reading anything that doesn't fit your own pre-set agenda, either, which is to blame attendance on fans making excuses, because you were asked to back that claim up with evidence and you didn't. Whatever. In the meantime, we agree to disagree. The club has a very bad attendance problem. I optimistically suggest that would be fixed over time with more sustained winning. That's what I believe to be true. You don't agree, which is fine, and I don't care if you do or not. You're entitled to your opinion. But if what you say is, in fact, true, that sustained winning won't solve the problem, and you are convinced the "small bandwagon" fan base just won't show up for one excuse or another, then Mr. Reinsdorf ought to think about selling the current ballpark that seats 40,000 and building one that only seats 20,000, because to your way of thinking, that's all he'll ever need. What you propose it takes for people to show up is the precise definition of bandwagon fans. Since JR owned the team, 8 teams have more titles: Dodgers, Cardinals, Marlins, Giants, Twins, Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox. 11 have fewer: Rays, Indians, Astros, Mariners, Rangers, Nationals/Expos/Cubs, Pirates, Brewers, Padres, Rockies. I think his ownership is far from the disaster some want to make it.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 22, 2015 -> 12:33 PM) He was nasty at times and the few times he got behind in counts the Sox got antsy and bailed him out. Cleveland has some nasty starters. The Sox needed to win the other games in the series when they had the pitching advantage on paper. Danks verse Salazar isn't fair. Danks wasn't bad after the 1st inning. I don't know what the deal is with White Sox starters in the first. It seems they tend to give up runs pretty often. Might be time for some sort of change of routine.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 22, 2015 -> 12:13 PM) You seem to be a reigning authority on these "reasons" or "excuses" you think explain why Sox fans don't show up in droves to the ballpark. You also take the liberty in painting in broad strokes to suggest that the majority of the fan base employs these excuses. How then, pray tell, do you know this to be true. How do you reach your conclusion that the reason for low attendance is a result of an excuse-making fan base? What body of evidence can you point to back up your claim? I say the reason for low attendance is the cumulative effect of a franchise that simply hasn't won enough to generate and sustain enough interest to encourage people to buy more tickets. I can point to 30 of 35 years of non-winning by this current ownership group to support my theory. What about you? Where is your definitive evidence that our fan base is a bunch of excuse makers? Hours and hours of listening to sports radio? Where is it! Explain why fans did not come out in 2012 if winning solves everything and they were in first place almost all summer long? I love this 30-35 years of not winning anything crap. Apparently you forgot the White Sox won the WS in 2005. The first and last WS title by an AL Central team since 1991.

QUOTE (shysocks @ May 22, 2015 -> 11:54 AM) The people here aren't the problem, all of us either live out of town or likely go to games far more frequently than the average fan. Casual fans are who don't attend Sox games, and there is a variety of reasons they've decided not to that are up to them, but the most important one is the team's performance. If the Sox won more, those people would show up more, and I don't really know how that can be disputed. People want to see and associate with a winner, as I illustrated by citing Blackhawks attendance in the other thread but people seemed to either not understand or retort in a smartass manner "SO THE SOX NEED TO BE A DYNASTY FOR PEOPLE TO GO TO GAMES, GOT IT." The people here are the problem though. Read a gamethread, they are beyond ridiculous, and the people here are making excuses for others not showing up. Again, no one has an obligation to attend games, but if your in first place all summer long and can't draw, and going back to 2005, when the White Sox were never not in first place, draw about 50,000 total during a 3 game series in September, a little over a month before you win a WS, there is a problem. On other boards they blame crap like size of video screens, parking lot attendants not smiling, and say Brooks Boyer is bad at his job. I think he's great at his job. He listens, comes up with the ideas the fans supposedly want. Green seats, cheaper tickets, lower deck access, etc. IMO no team tries harder than the White Sox to sell tickets. I will ultimately have tickets to about 40 games this year with a ton of perks, at a price the Schaumburg Boomers couldn't match.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 22, 2015 -> 11:23 AM) I was never criticizing Adam LaRoche. I was blaming Robin and/or Rick for starting the guy against LHP and/or not having better RH options available when you know how much he struggles against LHP. Somehow you spun that into blaming the entire putrid offense on Adam LaRoche but whatever. Read the rest of the thread. It was pile on Adam LaRoche hour.

The obvious question would be if the team had to go on these multi year playoff runs to bring in fans, how the hell did anyone here ever become a White Sox fan?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 22, 2015 -> 08:50 AM) It was a general comment/discussion about the LaRoche signing. Nobody ever said it had anything to do with the past 3 games against RHP. Adam LaRoche is not a significant offensive "problem". I realize some have honed in on him, so now he will become a punching bag, and those who wanted to jack Rick Hahn off for his offseason are now saying they knew all along some of these signings were just bad, but a thread on the Sox putrid offense focusing on Adam LaRoche, is pretty lame.

QUOTE (Iwritecode @ May 22, 2015 -> 08:27 AM) You keep dismissing this like it's some unobtainable feat. Yet every other team in the division has done it at least once. The Royals last good run was in the late 70's to the early 80's but it did happen. The Indians in the 90's, the Twins in the 2000's and the Tigers just recently. I don't think anyone expects them to be the Yankees, Braves or Cardinals who seemed to be there every single year. Just get there two years in a row or even 2 out of 4 years. These once in a decade appearances just aren't working. 2 out of 4 years? Check. 2005 and 2008. Attendance went down in 2008 from 2007. They were in first place most of 2012, yet attendance was down from 2011 which was down from 2010. I don't agree with ss2k5 all that often, but he couldn't be more right. No one is obligated to go to games, but quit complaining about not making the playoffs 3 or 4 years in a row when you don't show up and support successful teams.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 22, 2015 -> 08:14 AM) Because he shouldn't be starting against LH pitching. Nobody ever blamed that for this 3 game losing streak though. The offense was putrid against RHP, so I don't understand how this morphed into LaRoche can't hit lefties. There was some bad luck, as several balls were hit pretty hard, but its hard to win if you score 1 or 2 runs.

Supposedly Coop loved Aiken last year, but that could have been a lot of misdirection. Picking 8th without a pick for a while after that, you would really have to be sure either of these guys will be fine in the long run. Of course the guy you draft might have the same thing happen a week after he signs. If the Sox were drafting lower, I think taking one of these guys would be a no brainer, but right now there seems to be a good shot at a quality healthy player. I hope they get Fulmer myself.