Texsox

Some of these workers are third and fourth generation migrant workers. There great grandparents followed the crops every summer, it's the life they know. I am uncomfortable with statements that poor people should not reproduce. But many people have looked at selected breeding as a way to improve our gene pool.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 08:46 AM) The fun part will be when those who are against the fence want to use that as a reason to stop building it. Sure, if local corruption and cost overruns are reason enough to end a government project, lets just keep that thought going and end a whole lot more government projects with corruption and cost overruns. Might be kinda hard to find another one, though, you know how efficient our government is. Not local corruption, there are good projects up and down the border that have needed done. This will be the excuse to finally get them done, like levee repair. It's just a shame that this can't be done based on their own merits, instead of getting tacked onto the fence bill. They are also talking about compensating the ranchers and farmers for their lands and businesses that will be destroyed, which will really raise the price on this. If you were losing your business, you would want more than just the land cost, you would want the cost of your business as well. The ag industry on the river pulls all their water from the river. Without access to their valves and controls, it's all over for them.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 24, 2007 -> 06:14 AM) I'm sure the cost of the fence will keep rising and rising. We all know that these type of things always go that route. What will happen though if we don't stem the tide of undocumented illegals flooding into the country will be the costs of 'entitlements' being sucked up by the illegals and their anchor babies, and their contributions to the national cofeers being a fraction of what is being paid by good old John Doe, American. When the jobs go from off the books to on the books, more people will qualify for benefits. That is why this hasn't been fixed. People working for $7 per hour will take more then they pay in benefits. No matter who is working the job. The wages determine what programs you are eligible for. That is why a guest worker program, with scaled down benefits, has the least negative impact. The lowest is continuing with illegals like we have for decades and decades.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/12/24/polyc...s.ap/index.html

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 04:03 PM) Hmph, levee repair, yeah, what a waste of money. This country's levee systems are fine. Yes, and it shouldn't take a fence to get them fixed. They should be fixed on their own merit, or not, again based on their own merit.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 01:16 PM) We have gone over the need for guest worker programs in other threads, and I am not going to rehash that all here. But one thing about your comment above. The big problem is not that some used fake documents to collect those benefits, its that a huge number of the programs don't even allow the checking of citizenship before the benefits are handed out. So you have many people NOT assuming the role, while still taking the benefits. The self-deportation should work well, as it will be gradual, and allow the system to self-correct. That hole needs to be stopped.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 12:37 PM) When Reagan did the amnesty thing, I think the high end was arounf 5 or 6 million that got it. If amnesty were doen today, the new high end number of NEW people getting that would be over 15 million. That is a huge increase. And if we do not go to the core and fix that problem, it will be 10X worse in another thirty years. The root problem is the needs of American business. For an example I am staying with Agriculture because I believe it is a national security issue on par with oil. The citrus industry here, despite major advances in automation, still requires thousands of workers for a couple months. The packing sheds need people to pack, seal, move boxes of fruit, truck cosmetic flawed fruit to the juicers, etc. Then nothing. The other crops need workers as well. But in between there is no work. Do they collect unemployment for 6 months to work 6? Not good. Think about all the golf courses in Chicago that need landscaping help during the summer, what do those workers do during the winter? So we have nomadic workers that travel from area to area, scratching out a living. The Ag industry has operated that way for a hundred years. Workers, many third and fourth generation, travel each Spring to the US and follow the crops to Fall, then return to Mexico for the winter. Living in cars, or substandard farm houses. Our transition from the family farm to corporate farming has made the situation worse. Our farms are located far from major population centers. The workers need to move and be in those areas for a few weeks or months then move on. High School and college students can't fit the bill. Temporary unemployed can't fill the bill either. We offer an incredible package of social programs for the working poor. Pell Grants for education, child care, health care, food assistance, housing assistance. Anyone using those programs takes more than they pay in taxes. Would it not be nice if we could have millions of these low cost jobs filled without anyone using those benefits? That's were the off the books illegals flourished. The government didn't want to bankrupt the system, so people working without taking was perfect. We've looked the other way for generations as this went on. Tax payers in the US and poor migrant workers in Mexico both benefited from the system. Then people started getting greedy. They used fake documents and collected benefits. They assumed the role of full American worker, something we now are demanding. So we will have the millions of jobs that were off the books, now on the books, and the drain is happening. We can't stop Timmy McVeigh and Malvo, but we can try and stop Mexicans. What we need is a solution that pairs business needs with guest workers who will receive limited benefits while here. Perhaps health but not SS. Perhaps education to H.S. for their kids, but not college. The problem with the fence is it doesn't stop students, tourists, etc from over staying VISAs. Smugglers bring in billions of illegal drugs, people will not be that much more difficult. The fence is symbolic and makes some people warm and fuzzy. But if fences were so effective, why do prisons hire guards? Our unemployment rate is low and has been for decades. If we think $3 gas was an anchor on our economy, try even a small increase in food bills. And do we really want to become even more dependent on foreign suppliers from South America for our food?

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 12:07 PM) Actually they are criminals if they came here illegally. But looking at my new tax bill, and the breakdown for the local school district and the 500% increase in the English as a Second Language budget I can agree with Nuke on the parasite comment as well. I would like to ask the illegal immigration contingent here. I love the argument of, well if they left who would do the job. Who did it before they came here. The massive illegal movement is something of the last 15 years. So who exactly did these jobs before. Because the country I believe still ran back then. I see Adults now who cant speak english who work in the fast food industry. When I was 16, it was primary kids in the evenings, and a mixture of retires and some part timers. Last 15 years? Reagan granted amnesty way more than 15 years ago. This has been going on for as long as we've been a nation. Immigrants have done our heavy lifting for over 200 years. From slavery taming the south for farmland to Chinese building the railroads.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 12:11 PM) If they want to cut costs, maybe they should consider hiring illegals to build it, again. That is an old joke here. The fence, if built, will be built by Mexicans, and some will have questionable documentation, or, at a much higher cost, the contractors will have to bring in workers and pay to keep them here. This thing is going to cost billions.

It's 54 here with a nasty little wind chill.

QUOTE(jasonxctf @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 11:25 AM) wow, people who are working hard to make money to support their families and put food on their tables are parasites? Of course you are a parasite, unless you come through Ellis Island. The problem is this doesn't solve the problem of who will fill these jobs. An out of work accountant isn't going to pick crops for four weeks. The hard core unemployed will not suddenly abandon their parasitic live off the government because there is a job pushing a lawn mower. I'm all for fixing the problem, but the needs of Americans has to be in the equation. Like our Ag industry.

QUOTE(NUKE @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 10:17 AM) Funny how you choose to label as pork something that protects our country from the daily invasion of foreign nationals as "pork" when there's billions of dollars in really useless spending out there for you to rail against. But then you actually believe their presence benefits us anyhow so I guess its natural. The levee repairs and other projects that are getting tacked on is the pork. Sorry, I thought I was clear. I assumed people would read the article linked. My mistake. This fence will also protect is from illegal drugs, premature aging, and skunky beer.

QUOTE(Middle Buffalo @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 10:28 AM) You mean go outside and play? What, is this the 1950's? Well after the parents hire coaches, trainers, nutritionists, have the fields checked by OSHA for any safety hazards, contact their attorneys, perform background checks on the other kids and their parents, organize a play group, incorporate, vote officers, beam their schedules, exchange emails, and let the kids be kids

QUOTE(NUKE @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 10:21 AM) http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrant...e.ap/index.html This is some really good news. It shows what can be accomplished when you drain the swamps ( employers that hire illegals ) that these parasites flock to when they come here. I believe you meant back to where they came from. Maybe Buffalo won't be ordering that burger in proper English

By the way, the price for that drink isn't as expensive as you might think. Cantu, a local builder here, bundles contributions and has Hill Bill down here a couple times a year. Donate $1000 and be at the reception. Maybe not as private as the scenario that Rex invisioned in teh question, but shows just how easy it is to meet a Presiudential candidate or former President.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 08:47 PM) Tonight Snow. Areas of blowing snow in the evening. Blowing snow after midnight. Windy. Snow may be heavy at times in the evening. Snow accumulation of 2 to 4 inches. Lows near 10 above. Northwest winds 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 100 percent. Sunday Cloudy with a chance of snow. Blowing snow. Windy. Highs 10 to 15 above. West winds 25 to 30 mph with gusts to around 45 mph. Chance of snow 50 percent. Wind chill readings 10 below to 15 below zero. Boo. Oh the weather up north is frightful In Texas, it's so delightful as long as I'm way down here let it snow, let it snow, let it snow

http://www.themonitor.com/opinion/fence_75...ials_levee.html Basically it's pork. Build the fence on the levees and fix the levees in the process. Funny, this would be the biggest public works project down here in 80 years. Hundreds of millions of dollars. Initially every community on the Rio Grande River came out against it. Now they will line up and figure out how to get a little something in exchange for their cooperation. One thing I can always count on concerning the leaders on the border, they always figure out the angle to get theirs. With respect to Sinatra: Start spreading the pork, their building today I want to be a part of it - my pork, my pork These government rubes, are longing to spend Let's get to my part of it - my pork, my pork

I like the Wii choice because it gets him up off the couch more. I'd also suggest at some point getting him a "real" tennis raquet or golf club and head outside and play.

Stuff I've listened to that seems to really hit home with the mood I'm in. Fleetwood Mac; Landslide Jimmy Buffett; Changes in Latitude

And here's LCR's logic in the Prince of Tides case. The parents should not have sued because all the publicity causes more kids to read the book. Why isn't he saying the school and teacher should not have taken action because now more people now about the case?

Falwell's mom, the subject as well, is not a public figure. She was accused of incest in Flynt's parody. Any defense for her? All the kids had to do was place a picture of Michael Jackson in the parody and all's well?

I do not see it as a parody, nor did I find the Flynt/Falwell as a parody. I thought Flynt stepped over the line, same as these kids. And because of that, LCR would like my picture so he can do a parody of me.

QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 10:57 PM) Talk about self righteousness. Look in the goddamn mirror (or perhaps at your previous post) But then, keep telling us how much better you are than others here. Not better, just consistent.

QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 08:39 PM) Ok, Tex. Give me a photo. Let me set up a site with your picture and it says you have inappropriate actions with children. Then, let's see how it affects your Boy Scout career. I am going by the legal standpoint -- parody does not exist when a reasonable person believes the false statements to be accurate and reasonable. While I applaud the ACLU taking the case, the parody argument, legally, doesn't hold water -- and the kids are damn lucky that they aren't getting hit with a defamation of character lawsuit. And nice job being a mod and personally attacking posters -- so much that you put words into my mouth to make the straw man that you have so much fun knocking down. How pathetic. You called me out in your original post. You are such a hypocrite when it comes to teachers. If you bothered to notice, I said what the kids did was wrong and should be punished. But keep ignoring that statement. What they posted was wrong, just like Flynt. You talk about freedom of speech, civil disobedience, but when it comes to teachers WHOA!!!! Stay away, they are so maligned, so much stress. B.S. my girlfriend has been a teacher for twenty years and my best friend for almost thirty. I show them your posts and they laugh at your naivetés and self righteous b.s.

Funny how a religious leader, something you have always mocked, gets torched and that's ok. But whatever. I feel better being consistent. I think what the kids did was wrong and should be punished. Someday you may see your hypocrisy and defend those you do not agree with. Someday you may hold everyone to the same standard. But I doubt it. The world according to LCR Teachers are not to be challenged or any outside oversight Teachers are not to be the subject of parody LCR is a teacher. LCR dishes it out but can't take it. Heil Teachers