Texsox

QUOTE(Steff @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 05:17 PM) I respect the point you are making, and I'm sure it's valid for some.. but I don't agree with it one bit and I don't think it's fair to generalize the responses of those that do not have children. I lost a brother to drunk driving, don't you think that has an effect on my opinions on drunk driving? The father who lost a son to steroids, don't you think that has an effect on his opinion of steroids? Don't you think having a child effects your opinion on a parents role? I am not generalizing. Everyone who I have spoken to about this, who are in favor of her dying, do not have children. That's a fact, not a generalization. The point I am making from that fact, is having children changes some people's opinions about some things. It is an observation I made. Some people go through life with the same opinions they had when they are 18. For others, getting married, perhaps having a friend die, or face a life threatening illness, changes them. They look at things differently. I accept that those things do not change everyone, perhaps getting married didn't change your opinion of spousal rights. And I've been thinking about unconditional love and what it means to me. If this was my wife, I would be by her side every day, talking to her. Not living with another woman having kids. But as you mentioned, everyone has an opinion. One final note regarding feeding tubes as life support. To arbitrarily say you wouldn't want this life support means if you were ever in a coma you would want it pulled. Her brain state is a much more valid reason for pushing for her speedy death, than a feeding tube. Every paraplegic or person in a coma, needs assistance receiving nourishment. I don't believe you are saying she should die because she requires a feeding tube.

QUOTE(Steff @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 04:45 PM) All I can say is that at the time that was who she wanted making her decisions.. for 7 years he did everything he could for her until he was told that she would never get better.. with that in mind (that she was never going to get better) he continued to fight for what (he claims) she wanted (not to be on LS). At any time, it's my opinion, he could have walked away from this and went on to live life with his girlfriend (btw... his lawyer claims they are not engaged) and children. He hasn't done that choosing to continue to deal with this.. For me, that speaks volumes. But maybe I'm just stupid to think that there are people out there who love unconditionally and will do things out of the goodness of their heart no matter how much pain it causes them in their own lives. Keeping promises is important to me.. guess I expect that is so for others as well. Does them not being engaged add to or take away from your opinion of him? I'm a little old fashioned (obviously) and fathering two babies and not having plans to marry the mom, seems worse to me. Aren't the parents also loving unconditionally? They are wanting to care for someone who we all agree, isn't all there. They are wanting to sacrifice their lives to care for her. That speaks volumes to me. I've always respected your opinion, and am trying to understand wanting her dead and out of the way as being more altruistic than caring for her. I believe parents make a lifelong promise as well. There is also an attachment that is beyond words. Does anyone believe the nurses that report the husband has walked into her room, in the past and asked when is that b**** going to die? I believe there are so many exaggerations and out and out lies on both sides, this is getting unreal. I really believe that having kids changes opinions on this. Steff, Wino, ChiSoxy, and Queen are all kidless. Trust me things change when you have kids. Emotions and attachments are different. I know I would have argued to let the husband make the decision 18 years ago.

Have you thought about asking one of your buddies? Mathcing tux's would be really cool.

QUOTE(Steff @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 04:31 PM) And I read that they are just involuntary reflexes.. everyone has an opinion I guess. Either way, I agree it isn't much, and isn't how I would like to live. I also wouldn't want my ex-wife making that decision. The mainstream media has been parading people who were considered to be in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery, who now feed themselves, talk, and communicate. What was meaningful to me was they all report being able to hear what was going on around them. I really do not believe that is her future, it seems too far gone. I just can not believe we would allow a man who has divorced her in almost every sense to make this decision. And from what I've read, most of the court rulings have been upholding his right to decide her care over her parents. THat is different then ruling on whether she is better off dead or alive.

QUOTE(Steff @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 09:22 AM) Her brain is liquified. There is no activity. She moves her eyes and body and can make noise. My understanding from listening to Doctors is that requires brain activity. Low level, but brain activity. Here's a question, do you think she would rather have her ex-husband making a life or death decision, or her parents? Can anyone really claim he is married to her in anyway but in a legal sense?

QUOTE(Queen Prawn @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 10:45 AM) Don't say that. You remind me of my baby brother. He is convinced he is the worst looking thing under the sun and he isn't. He recently lost a bunch of weight and he looks good for himself and better than that he is a great guy. I am not saying that just cuz he is my brother, but because I know he treats people right. As for mail order brides, one of Brian's buddies did that about 2 years ago and they are still happily married. (My only point to this is that people do actually do this and every now in then it actually works out.) Are you sure y'all aren't from Mississippi

QUOTE(ChiSoxyGirl @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 09:05 AM) Being at airports all day yesterday, I was lucky enough to watch the media feeding frenzy around this. My take on this is that Ms. Schaivo really died probably at least 10 years ago. I like to think that we are more than just breathing and blinking (stuff that is controlled by the allocortex, the most unevolved part of our brain). Without the cerebral cortex (neocortex, whatever you call it) the person she once was is gone. This isn't like a stroke or a brain lesion. I understand the concern that she's going to be killed--but medically (and I think spiritually) she's been dead a long time. And now all that's left is fighting over how long to keep her body around. As I examine this, I find myself agreeing with all of your premises, but not the conclusion. The slippery slope we would be putting ourselves on is placing a value on a human life based on IQ, personality, memory, brain function, etc. I do not see that as a prudent path for our, or any civilization, to take. A flat lined brain is one thing, but she is not brain dead as we currently believe that to mean. As I have discussed this with people. Those that have kids are far more likely to side with the parents, those without kids, more likely to side with the husband.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 08:37 AM) Yeah, if anyone is the kings of overreacting to a common activity... Pitchers shag balls in the OF all of the time. Pay attention at a BP and you will see that. They do it while they stretch or work on long toss. AL pitchers always dream of being "real" baseball players

QUOTE(winodj @ Mar 22, 2005 -> 08:25 AM) So first it was about the money. Then he abused her. Then he denied her care. Now he sleeps around on her. Is it me, or is every stop being pulled out to demonize this guy? And should someone have to live a life of paralysis indefinitely because his wife is brain dead? He waited 8 years before he asked to have the feeding tube removed. Eight years is a long enough time to establish whether or not there is hope. Seven levels of judicial review have now agreed with Michael Schiavo that her wishes should be honored. The parents don't. It was all those things. To further the conversation, it doesn't make sense to keep rehashing. I do not think it is possible to examine *his* wishes, without examining his motivation. Remember the basic situation here is he wants her dead. If he wasn't involved, none of this would be going on. The courts are defending his wishes as her guardian. There is no writen record of her wishes, only the word of a guy who would like her dead. Let's say a miracle happens and she sits up. Who does he live with? His wife or his girlfriend and kids? He should not be making this decision. Keeping her alive, at worse, is no benefit to her; at best spares her life. Killing her at worse, kills a human and at best ??

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 11:31 PM) Yeah, Ladies love confidence..... Confidence and BIG COCKS. So here's my advice: Go to the supermarket by yourself an appropriately sized and shaped fruit or vegetable, and then throw it down your shorts in a nice banana hammock. I know baggy pants are in these days, so you might have to rub up against the girl while you are asking her for her to notice. The key is to only rub your junk on her just enough for her to notice. Too much and you'll 1) creep her out, and 2) bruise your fruit or vegetable so that you can't have it for lunch later. So this Roman soldier asks his buddies for help with the ladies, and surprisingly receives the exact same advice as above. Fortunately for him the style of the day were tight speedo style shorts, and the outline of the potato (potatoe for GOPers) was clearly defined in his shorts. After walking through the marketplace, and receiving nothing but laughs, he returned to his buddy and asked for more advice. After carefully looking over the soldier and his potato, his buddy replied. Let's try this again, only this time, put the potato in the front.

The official reason for including solitaire in early versions of windows was to help people learn to use a mouse. People learn faster and more completely when they are involved in a game. What this means for businesses is they could put together a trivia type game to help employees learn products. Games could be designed to stress safety issues unique to that facility. Lan games can be used to develop team work, reduce stress, etc.

QUOTE(winodj @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 09:47 PM) If death is not the end, I see a benefit to this. Assuming that she said that she didn't want to be kept on life support in this kind of situation, which her husband and six levels of judicial review determined, her wishes would finally be honored. And this is about her, right? And her right to life and her right to die? Or maybe this isn't about life at all. Or maybe there'd still be a baby alive in Houston after the hospital took her off life support, against her parents wishes, because the money ran out. If we were certain those were her wishes, I would agree 100% and be writing that she should be euthanized in a painless manner, instead of slowly dehydrated. But the only person who will benefit from her death, is the same person who is pushing for her to die. If he wasn't involved in this, there would be no controversy. Keeping her alive, at worse, provides no benefit to Terri. Killing her, at worse, kills a human being. We should always error on the side of caution. As a parent I can not imagine the terror of having someone killing your baby. Especially when that someone is living in a new home with his common law wife and children. The guy has moved on. Let the parents care for their child. They raised her and have much more invested than he does. Interesting point regarding divorce Juggernaut. I assume that Florida is a no fault state. I wonder if this was in a state where you must have grounds, if that could have happened. I still can not agree with that process. There are some people **cough cough Hillary cough cough* who do not seem to mind their spouses sleeping around. Sweet irony then of conservatives pushing for divorce.

QUOTE(winodj @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 09:00 PM) http://www.responseunlimited.com/datacard.lasso?list=2968 Gerald Kelly, Theological Studies 1950. I can certainly understand that view, in fact I agree that is the worse case scenario. But notice there is not harm to the patient. He mentions no benefit. So worse case there is no benefit to her in keeping her alive. What is the worse case scenario to standing by and allowing her to die? Again, what is the benefit to Terri in allowing her to die? What is the potential harm in allowing her to die? I have yet to hear anyone describe a benefit to Terri in allowing her to die? If there is no benefit, but a slim to no chance of a brilliant and miraculous upside in keeping her alive, isn't the safest route choosing life? Don't we want our government to choose life for it's citizens?

QUOTE(winodj @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 05:54 PM) That was the 500th post in this thread. Er, 501st. did you count them all?

QUOTE(winodj @ Mar 20, 2005 -> 08:42 AM) He pursued an aggressive course of therapy for five years. With no improvement, and according to every medical professional who has reviewed this that I've seen, no chance of improvement. If she's in a perpetual vegetative state with no hope of improvement, why would you try to get her further therapy? How is she being harmed by keeping her alive? Who benefits if she is dead? The very person who had the final say. That seems a perverse situation. This isn't a grieving spouse, weeping at her bedside. This is a guy who goes home to his common law wife and kids, while the parents mourn. I wonder if he will even allow them at the funeral. He had them barred from her bedside. From what I've heard, whenever she started to show signs of improvement, he changed therapists and treatments. If he cares about her so much, why is he living and making babies with someone else? We're looking at a guy who is planning a wedding for 5 minutes after the funeral v. parents who desperately want to care for their child. As a parent, I can truly feel their pain and it is an easy opinion for me. Ask anyone who has had children, you do not realize the bonds until you see them, or feel them kick. Again I ask. Eventually she is going to die, how is she harmed by delaying, if she is as bad as he claims. And how does she benefit? He should walk away, get divorced, and allow the parents to care for her. The government should never decide death for one of it's citizens. It is far easier for me to sympathies with the parents then a man who went ahead and started a new life. Her parents are willing to take the burden from him. Some would call it grandstanding, and there are some people who probably are, but for many in this, they are trying to save her life. And among the people who would prefer to see her die, some of those are grandstanding as well. And death by dehydration is a terrible way to die. We treat stray dogs and mass murderers better. Opening up another can of worms. If the kill her crowd wins, let the poor woman die a peaceful death by lethal injection. Most people would at least give a stray dog a bowl of water.

I was listening to Hannity this afternoon and he had a "Noble Award Nominee" Doctor who has spent 10 hours with her and he claims, she can follow objects with her eyes, moves from side to side. He claims will therapy she could be walking and functioning. This seems way optimistic to me based on what other Doctors have reported. He did mention some other things and a couple things that seem wrong to me. Every time a nursing home suggested therapy, the husband would move her to another home. If there is no hope, why was she moved from home to home? Two nurses have signed affidavits that she has chewed and swallowed food on her own. When they mentioned it to the hubby, he moved her to another facility. He is living with and has two children by another woman. Why doesn't he just let go, and allow her parents to care for her? That still makes no sense to me. She suffered through several infections and he would not authorize even giving her antibiotics. He would not allow the facility to take her outside? What harm could there possibly be in taking her outside? Was he afraid she would run away? I am rapidly losing any sympathy for this guy. I know the parents are probably clinging to too small a hope, but this guy seemingly doesn't care. I hope this hasn't turned into a pissing contest on this guy's part. It feels weird way over here with the GOP I feel like I crashed a party and I'm waiting to be kicked out.

Think the Doc will suggest treatment in Vienna?

QUOTE(Queen Prawn @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 04:55 PM) I, too, am uncool and I am cool with that lol. Go put on your tiara and PLaY PRiNCeSs with Br!an

QUOTE(Iwritecode @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 02:07 PM) The biggest problem is that some kids get so used to it that they start turning in homework assignments with these "misspellings". That is a problem. They also start to buy lite beer. I read an interesting article way back when regarding Sesame Street and how it negatively effected my generation because they couldn't stay focused for more than 40 seconds. TV hasn't always been helpful either.

QUOTE(Steff @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 02:11 PM) Good grief.. Christopher Reeve could communicate. And while Terry makes noise and appears to look at people when they talk to her.. there is no evidence that she has any ability to communicate nor any proof that she can remember things for more than 5 minutes as that part of her brain is liquid. The point I clumsily was trying to make is a feeding tube may or may not be considered a life support device depending on circumstances and to be careful when writing a living will. Likewise, someone in a coma would also need a feeding tube. A narrowly defined living will may not reflect your wishes. I believe the totality of the person is needed to determine when a feeding tube is considered live support. I 100% would respect her wishes to not be kept alive in the state she is in, if she had clearly stated those wishes. Absent of any written statements by her, I do not see any harm in keeping her alive.

Now I see how you were looking at this. I can definatlly see your point. What I think makes this case unique is the lack of a written document that proves what she wants and the finality of death. I know some are trying to link it with the whole pro life issue. It is interesting that many anti-death penalty Dems are on the let her die side. It seems to me that she is getting a death sentance and we aren't even being as kind to her as we would a mass murderer. Dehydration (not starvation) is going to take her life and it will be a terrible death. I've read too many accounts of patients who Doctors said could not hear, in fact could. Patients who Doctors said couldn't feel pain, could. If she is in as bad a shape as the pro-death crowd believes, she isn't in any more pain or suffering by keeping the feeding tube in place. If she is functioning at the level her parents are desperate to believe, she is not only not being harmed by the feeding tube, but any rational human would agree keeping her alive is the right thing to do. The chart as I see it. Husband's view: Feeding tube: Waste of time No feeding tube: quickens death Parent's view: Feeding tube: sustains life No feeding tube: murder Where does she lose by being kept alive? Where does she gain by dying?

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Mar 21, 2005 -> 01:55 PM) God damn hippie. I hate the way you talk, mang! Peace

Full disclosure: I was a full fledge chess geek in grade school through college and much of that was traced to the Fisher v. Spasky World Chess Championships. I think I have played through those games a hundred times. I even (major geek) went to the 5th grade costume party as a chess player. (Oh how did I ever manage to reproduce). Having said that, Bobby Fisher is a complete, antisemitic, psycho and needs therapy, not a country.

Every generation has it's own phrases, I think it's really hip and groovy that the hip cats of today are what's happening. What makes this unique is we are raising the first generation of instant communication babies. This is the first generation who are growing up with IM, message boards, and relying so heavily on written communications. It only makes sense that a unique language would develop. Right On!

But that doesn't explain the more obnoxious pwn3d