Texsox

I've done worse for a woman.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 09:22 PM) The only thing that bothers me about your argument, Tex, is that it doesn't account for Bonds' right to be paid according to how he fit in amongst his peers in the game. Baseball is a game where you are compensated based on your statistical performance relative to the rest of the players in the league. If other players in the league are cheating, and that impacts your paycheck, how do you account for that? If you read the book on Bonds and his alleged drug use, it begins with a passage about Bonds seeing McGwire and Sosa in the home run chase, knowing full-well that they were cheating, and being ticked off that they were getting all the press and hype when Bonds believed he was the better player. That is when he supposedly decided to start doing PED's - to keep up with the Jones's. How do you address that part of it? Easy, and you are correct, the only way compensation is fair is if everyone is playing under equal conditions. So why not publish a lengthy list of the rules and demand everyone follow the same list? Sounds easier than allowing everyone to create their own list. You would be placing a non existent right to cheat above your stated right to be fairly compensated. That leads to the inequities you mentioned. And it also highlights why I think owners and league management deserve a black eye in this, they silently allowed it to go on, for the same reason, money. Longshot, yes, many sports have passed me by, Today, other than a golf course, I'd lose to most of the youngins. But when I was younger I beat those that played fair and I beat the cheaters like yourself. Damn, that is a good feeling. Too bad you will never understand that. You never beat someone in a fair contest. You probably should go back to cheating and have someone write your posts for you. It is the old person, the guy who is too slow, too weak, that needs to cheat to catch up. You would think someone for whom the game has not passed them by wouldn't need to cheat. Those that think cheating is OK, is it not then hypocritical to enforce the rules?

QUOTE (BigEdWalsh @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 08:58 PM) That'd be my guess. We'll see. No Van Halen? No Jimmy Buffet? No Michael Jackson, ok that one would be fine. LOL

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 02:01 PM) I commend Tex. Upstanding posts. Are you pro Bonds people thinking about what would show up in ST? The guy is OLD. Remember Michael with the Wizards? He sucked and it was an ugly sight to see. As I recall he was so bad the novelty even wore off and the games weren't on TV much. Bonds is old. He's done with baseball. Thome would be a much better option and he's getting up there. Thank you. I just noticed you are in Lawrence. One of my fav authors, William Burroughs lived the last years of his life there. I believe his literary executor, James Grauerholz, still lives there.

Who, Zep, Beatles? Maybe.

Whoa, the Who will not make the top 50?? That's crazy.

QUOTE (Felix @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 06:55 PM) Something tells me there's a Steve Vai connection there, but I don't know when it happened. Exactly. Frank to Weird Al?

Frank Zappa to David Lee Roth

QUOTE (FlaSoxxJim @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 01:20 PM) Well done with Eddie Jobson. The most famous FZ/Deep purple connection is, of course, Montreux Switzerland, and the casino burning down during a Mothers show due to "some stupid with a flare gun", as immortalize on Smoke on the Water. not that good, I thought his name was Jacobson, I should have looked it up. The only reason I knew that is my son plays violin and I've picked up some R&R violin trivia. There are not a lot of R&R violinists out there.

QUOTE (FlaSoxxJim @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 01:11 PM) Good job with Aynsley. For the ELO connection, I've only come up with something tenuous, in the form of Ringo Starr. Ringo starred in 200 Motels as Larry the Dwarf, and he has appeared as a guest studio musician on a more recent ELO album. If there is a more solid connection I will keep thinking about it. Here's another one for you to work on: FZ and Duran Duran? Perhaps too hard. Aynsley also worked with John Lennon, who played in an obscure band with George Harrison, who was in the Travelling Wilburys with Jeff Lynne who was in ELO. OI couldn't even tell you who was in Duran Duran, so you got me.

Zappa and Deep Purple?

QUOTE (FlaSoxxJim @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 01:00 PM) Two Canned Heat connections I know of. The most important is that Sunflower Vestine, an early MOI member (pre Freak our, but he's on some FZ demos and rarities that have been relesaed) was a guitarist and founding member of Canned Heat. The second connection is that MOI core member Don Preston spent a small amount of time with Canned Heat. On the subject of Canned Heat, I am a cardholding member of the Bob the Bear Hit Society ("He Came, He Walked Around, He Died"), although not in good standing because the only real stipulation for being a member is you have to drink your beer with your left hand and I can't remember to do that. OK, next Zappa connection: FZ and Jethro Tull. Eddie Jacobson and his violin.

QUOTE (Whitewashed in '05 @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 11:11 AM) I don't think he's done a bad job. It's been time for someone new for a while though. I know people will criticize him because of the steroids, but overall I think he's been fine with the restructuring of the divisions and playoffs. I certainly don't like the "meaning" of the ASG. and the steroid issue is probably the clearest in my mind where he looked out for the benefits of his peers (owners) instead of the well being of the players or the game.

I love finds like this. There was a rib place, take out only, and Algonquin and 53 in Schaumburg. If you didn't know about it, you would never find it. It was always busy.

Depends on how you judge the movie.

He far exceeded what I expected, which tells you how little I expected. I felt it was wrong to have an owner as the commissioner. I felt there needed to be some balance. However, overall, his ownership interest was not much of a hindrance or asset in the job he did. The game is better than now that when he took over, although it went through a period where it was worse. In the annals of sport commissioners he was no Pete Roselle, but he wasn't a total stiff.

Short form summary of the arguments that have been used in this thread and elsewhere: Pro Bonds argument: If you accept one form of cheating, you must accept all forms of cheating. My response: Different rules have different consequences based on severity. To punish all the rules the same would either mean no penalties or the harshest penalties, no matter what. Our society has never operated that way. A fair punishment for point shaving or throwing a game is a lifetime suspension. Should we also apply that to throwing a spitball? Pro Bonds: If you have ever cheated, no matter how small, you cannot hold Bonds accountable. My response: Again the assumption would be that all cheating or rules breaking is the same. Someone who shoots an 85 and turns in an 84 in a fun game with friends for bragging rights, is on a much different level than someone playing on the PGA tour and turning in a bogus scorecard and winning millions. Someone playing poker in their home is different than someone operating a casino. Someone corking a bat and hitting a few home runs is different than someone using a corked bat for half their career. Pro Bonds: Everyone was cheating. My response: No, some where not. Pro Bonds: He was already the greatest that ever played. My response: Perhaps that is true, but then why did he use steroids? I wish we could fairly compare his stats to other players who did not use PEDs. Clearly he would have been in the discussion. Too bad we have to predict what effects his drug usage had. Pro Bonds: He still had to hit the ball. The didn't really help his stats. My response: Then why did he use them and why are they called performance enhancing drugs? Pro Bonds: It wasn't against the rules at the time. My response: They hid it from everyone, including their clean team mates. They lied and claimed it was supplements, better workout regimes, etc. They knew it was wrong. Pro Bonds: It wasn't in the rules book. My response: Either is slitting the tires of a player's car so they can't get to the game, doesn't mean it is allowed or should be tolerated. And my final point, (unless someone plows some new pro PED ground), is this. Unlike all the other rules infractions that have been employed in baseball, this was unenforceable by the umpires. They couldn't pick up the ball and see the foreign substance. Further, the affect and effects were greater than any other form of cheating. That puts this on a different scale than other forms of cheating. Also, in defense of Bonds and other superstar players, is perhaps the grossest miscarriage in all this, is that the teams and league management, those people who the game was entrusted to, allowed this to flourish. I am not placing all the blame on the players, Bonds included. In fact, in many ways I believe management deserves a much bigger black eye than they are receiving. They made millions from this and seem to be getting a free ride.

Blues Brothers better than Animal House?

Zero chance anyone will forget that line.

Being escorted can happen when you quit. It is good protection for all parties concerned when there are sensitive documents involved. Usually if the person has quit, they have already taken everything they wanted. Most likely, based on what you wrote, he quit in the midst of an argument with the AD. In that case, an escort would have been advised.

QUOTE (knightni @ Nov 28, 2009 -> 12:02 PM) That's still opinion and hearsay. There is no concrete proof. No concrete proof? That players hid it?

Using the premise of everyone has cheated or broke a rule, should we stop enforcing all rules? If we accept speeding five over, we should accept speeding twenty-five over? As a society when we find people breaking the rules we hold them accountable. It is a real stretch to claim that because the judge sped on his way to court that day, he shouldn't be allowed to convict that embezzler. Your claims of we accept this little stuff so we must accept this bigger stuff would mean to severely punish the bigger stuff we would have to severely punish the smaller stuff. Does that really make sense? Your example would mean the employees of Enron who made a few photocopies for their personal use (stealing office supplies) should not b**** when their retirement was stolen through company fraud and corruption. Correcting that seeming discrepancy would mean stealing those copies or a pen should mean long jail time. Certainly you can see why society has different levels of punishment based on the severity of the rule or law. The punishment varies from quiet acceptance (a few copies, a few paper clips) to long jail time (fraud, embezzlement). Same with the difference between scuffing a ball and taking steroids.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Nov 28, 2009 -> 11:42 PM) I gotta ask you Tex cause this has been a debate you've had over the years on this board and I just read it, and never get into it cause it's not my business. Have you ever cheated, just alittle, in anything in your life? I was under the impression that everyone does something to give them an edge to get by whether it's copying something in school, spitball/tar in a sport, eating junk food in a diet, giving themselves a higher score in a family board game etc... This is more or less an off topic question, especially considering unless the persons name is Jesus Christ, I've personally never come across (or read) a person who has never cheated once in their lives at something even a professional athlete who gets ridiculed because he's a millionaire. I don't care if the MLB wipes out Bonds year 2000 numbers till the last game he played (I think 2007 or 2008) before he left. The man is still a hall of famer. You can't say that about guys like Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero, etc.. etc.. This man is one of the best players to ever put on a uniform. I personally hope the MLB does something to that extent to show the older players especially, and the fans that PEDs are not the answer. Even if they do that, Bonds still has a first place ballot waiting in Cooperstown. The same can be also said about Pete Rose. The man is a sure fire hall of famer, never did PEDs, his numbers are all legit. But he cheated the game by gambling when he was a manager, not a player. But it is still against the rules. People would still vote him in, and rightfully so. Hell we got hall of famers in Cooperstown RIGHT NOW, who cheated one way or another in this game and got away with it. The sayings go "If you don't get caught, it's not cheating" or "If your not cheating, your not trying" can apply. God knows how many baseballs Wilhelm, Spawn, Perry, etc.. were doctored up when they played. Hell even you hear a hall of famer(s) like Schmidt and even "pine tar" Brett say that if they had PEDs when they played that they probably would have done it to gain an edge and increase production is fairly telling in my eyes. Hell Canseco already said that there's one active hall of famer who did PEDs that is already in Cooperstown, and we may never know who that is. Fair question. First of all, I do not see it as hypocritical to believe that there is a hierarchy of cheating and breaking of the rules. Some things are worse than others. As I noted, go yell at an ump and you may get a warning, you may get thrown out of the game, or you may get suspended. In real life get caught with a joint, get a warning, get caught with a kilo, probably not a warning, possibly jail time. Should society have the same punishment for every law that is broken? I doubt anyone here would seriously advocate that. So why are there different punishments? Because the severity of the rule/law is different. So if you lump eating junk food on a diet with taking steroids, read no further. You will never understand the rest. The issue becomes where to place steroids on this list. It is my belief that steroids are worse than scuffing a ball, or corking a bat. In almost all other rules infractions, the ump has the ability to detect the cheating and stop it. With steroids, there is no way for the ump to detect it. Also, a player on steroids is cheating 100% of the time. In Bond's case, you can't even compare his cheating and non cheating results for the latter part of his career. And that really is sad. Imagine if Bonds had not juiced. His stats would be lower, but we would be arguing if he is the greatest based on results that were achieved under about the same conditions as every player in the past. Instead we must first decide how inflated his results are based on his drug use. That is not good for the game. It also seems wrong to reward a player because they found a superior way to cheat. Games are defined by rules. When you invent a game, the first thing you do is make up the rules. Try and play a game where there are no rules. If two people are playing by two different sets of rules, they are not playing the same game. I find it hard to believe that at the end of an athletic contest, some of you here are happy to say, we cheated better than the other team, versus, we played better than the other team. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has played a sport and won, fairly, would find any satisfaction in cheating to win. We will never know what Bonds non cheating results would have been. I agree it certainly would probably have been enough to warrant Hall of Fame induction. However, we will never know. We want to celebrate someone who pissed on the game of baseball. We want to hold him up in the hall as the type of player that everyone should aspire to? No thanks. If the game was filled by people who are all cheating, the game becomes meaningless. If the attention is not on improving performance on the field with practice, ability, and hard work, but in laboratories and which chemist can create a better player, why not stop playing humans and just play a video game? Imagine this, Wow! that ball went 600 feet! What do you think he used? Clear? I hear there is a new bat that will add 100 feet and looks just like a real one. No I hear they broke into the storage room and doctored the balls. These guys are breaking all the rules! This is our greatest team ever!! As far as my cheating, the only time I can remember breaking the rules, was during my Club's match play championship. In the semi final round I took relief from an embedded ball between a water hazard and the green, out of site of my opponent. Later, I realized I was probably within the boundary of the hazard and not entitled to relief. I brought it to the attention of the club pro, we visited the site, and I was right, I should not have taken relief. However, the pro informed me that once the results were posted, they were official, and there was no way to go back and award the victory to my opponent. I lost in the finals 8 and 7, I just did not want to be there. I may have beaten my opponent without the illegal drop, I was ahead at that point, but we will never know. That hole may have changed the momentum and he may have played better. I cannot believe some here would adopt the attitude of, too bad, he didn't catch you, you won and that's all that counts. I play to see if I am the better player that day, not if I can cheat better than my opponent. I'd rather practice playing than practice cheating. Fans are upset when a human officiating error is the difference between winning and losing, how can fans feel good when cheating is the difference? I wonder if those that advocate for cheating would say, we lost the championship because the other team was cheating. But I don't care. Cheating is OK in my book and if they cheated better than us, they deserve the championship. Some may enjoy hearing, awesome bit of cheating out there today. I thought you were going to lose, but who would have thought they would forget to keep on eye on you. Great switch of the balls and having that extra player run out there in the final seconds was brilliant! I guess they will spend less time practicing and more time learning the easy way.

2:30 AM, and not drunk, makes this an interesting scenario. I've played baseball as a leisurely activity, but it is still a sport. I've played pick up basketball games as a leisure activity, but it is still a sport.

X-actly where I thought we would be. And the Good Ol' Boys were playing at a bar in Wisconsin IIRC