witesoxfan

The Twins are interested too, but Haren can block a trade to both the Twins and Tigers. That'd be stellar if they agreed to a trade and Haren turned it down.

So, at the very, very least, Hudson, Santos, and Viciedo. And then we get to see Kotsay DH for the rest of the season!

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 23, 2010 -> 10:01 AM) Without giving up Beckham, it's going to have to be Gavin Floyd AND Santos AND Viciedo/Flowers. You can't cripple the starting pitching staff by including Floyd, Danks or Hudson in a trade. We can shed Torres, of course, but that's not going to be enough to come close to getting Fielder or Dunn. I wouldn't trade Floyd or Danks straight up for Fielder.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 22, 2010 -> 04:17 PM) That has to be about impossible. I figure that as well. If the Nationals aren't getting someone close to the majors who is also very talented, they are much better off getting the added value of retaining Dunn through the deadline while also selecting two players themselves. As is, Danks' value is low (and may never be that high), Morel is virtually useless to Washington, Flowers' value is much lower as they still have Jesus Flores who looks like a solid player (though he hasn't played this year). I think they'd like Viciedo, but would probably want Hudson most of all. Williams obviously wants to upgrade the offense, but he wants to upgrade it in a big way by acquiring Dunn or Fielder. I don't know that the Sox have the bullets to do so without mortgaging a bit of the future (or, at the very least, a good, young starting pitcher in Hudson). One of Rizzo and Williams is going to blink and cave one way or the other (and I think Williams blinking would be to the effect of him acquiring a different, lesser bat, which I would be perfectly content with).

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 22, 2010 -> 02:32 PM) Putz really is a luxury on this team, Thornton, Jenks, and Santos can handle the seventh eighth and ninth in some order. Alonso may have more of and adjustment than Dunn or Fielder, but he also would cost sognificantly less. He did start slowly adjusting to AAA this year when he was being asked to play LF on a regular basis, in his last ten games his line is .395/.452/.474/.926 so it appears he is figured it out. Putz is gone after this year anyway so you might as well get some value out of him while you can. Trading a middle reliever is ridiculous? Really? With an infield core of Alonso, Beckham, Viciedo, and Ramirez - very cheap - the team can afford to make some other moves. Adding Dunn means more money off the books at the end of the year but leaves holes at 1B, 2B, and 3B next season, unless you are dying for an IF of Retherford, Ramirez, Teahen, and Morel. Fielder would also cost at least Bacon and Viciendo, which means you would have little around him next year either and with his contract could not afford to do much to replace them in the off-season. I am not saying that Alonso is better than Dunn or Fielder, but he is a lot better option for the White Sox when everything is taken into account. He would be a better option at DH than Kotsay and would keep the Sox from having to give up any vital pieces. 1) Putz is not a luxury on this team, he's a necessity. You don't trade him to "get value" for him, because his value is highest to the White Sox. And yes, trading a middle reliever when the only two sure-things in the pen are the reliever in question and one other is absolutely ridiculous. The only two pitchers that I see as being able to consistently get guys out are Putz and Thornton. Santos has stuff, but has gotten knocked around a bit over the past month or so. Pena is a mediocre middle reliever and nothing more. Linebrink can't be trusted in any game the Sox are within 4 runs of the opposition. Threets is journeyman fodder. Jenks has proven to be positively mediocre this entire year. Trading Putz, at this point in time, is absolutely absurd to even consider. 2) Alonso is going to cost significantly less than Dunn or Fielder because he is significantly worse than Dunn or Fielder. You can't use a 10 game sample and declare that a guy has figured it out. Otherwise, Tyler Flowers would be the starting catcher for the Sox. It's entirely possible he got lucky on the balls he put into play during that time period. Further, that line alone tells me I don't want him simply because he's hitting for singles and doubles while drawing the occasional walk (what is that, maybe 4 walks in 10 games?), because an Iso of .079 is Erstadian in stature. 3) The Sox could also afford to go Viciedo-Beckham-Ramirez-Morel. Or Teahen-Beckham-Ramirez-Viciedo. Or they could quite conceivably spend a little bit of money on their infield because they aren't the Florida Marlins. Just because they don't have a lot of money to work with next year doesn't mean they have absolutely none at all. 4) For whatever reason, you assume that I am willing to deal Hudson, Viciedo, and Beckham for Dunn. This is simply not the case. Further, you assume that, if the Sox did, for whatever reason, deal Hudson, Viciedo, and Beckham for Dunn, that they wouldn't go out and try to find replacements from outside the organization, when during Williams' tenure, that's been the main source of finding players. Finally, if Washington is going to deal Dunn, it really should only take one of Viciedo or Hudson (because Beckham is obviously not available) plus other players within the minors, and it may be entirely possible that Williams is able to make a deal otherwise. 5) I would say Fielder is completely out of the picture. The Brewers want pitching badly, and they apparently view Hudson as a #3 or #4. That, to me, suggests that any deal between the two teams is virtually impossible. 6) I don't necessarily believe that Alonso is an upgrade over Kotsay. His numbers in the minors this year, according to minor league splits, translate to a .233/.287/.343/.630 line in the majors. His July would be nice, but then again, Kotsay's had nice splits too. Beyond ANY of this, this is only assuming the Sox deal for Dunn or Fielder. They could easily acquire Luke Scott, Adam LaRoche, Jose Bautista, or Jayson Werth too, and they could simply stand pat and let Teahen DH for a while too. Williams won't make a move unless it meets his price.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 22, 2010 -> 01:25 PM) Damn it, the Twins play the Orioles? Come on... Atleast they're in Baltimore...?

I don't even know why this would have any effect on his trade value. It's his non-throwing shoulder, and he will be able to play through it.

The Sox aren't going to be able to complete a trade with Washington with just the assets in the minor league system. It's going to take atleast one of Viciedo or Hudson. If Williams can prove me wrong and acquire Dunn while not dealing Viciedo or Hudson, and keeping an elite talent like Trayce Thompson in the system, I'll be blown away.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 22, 2010 -> 12:23 PM) Would much rather focus on getting someone like Yonder Alonso, young, under team control, and not nearly the expense in prospects. A deal based around Putz and some minor leaguers like Morel, and low level pitchers could probably get the deal done. Cinci is in win now mode and is hurting for bullpen help, Alonso is blocked behind the NL MVP and had a bad start to the season in AAA so his value is not at its peak. It also fills the hole at 1B next season and gives the team some flexibility with Viciendo at either 3B or DH. If you need to include Hudson you may also be able to pry Bailey back and give Coop a chance to "fix 'em". You might even be able to include Teahen if Rolen is hurt for a significant amount of time. Fielder is going to cost way too much in terms of prospects and $$, it appears Dunn will as well. I would rather roll the dice with a young guy than trade away the future for a big question mark. Neither Dunn nor Fielder have ever played in the AL and there would be some adjustment period and adding a veteran can cause chemistry issues, see Nick Swisher. That's all fine and dandy, but Yonder Alonso has put up a .274/.339/.410/.749 line between AA and AAA this year. He hasn't had just a bad start in the minors, he's been bad all the way around. The Sox also have Viciedo to fill the hole at 1B next year if Konerko isn't resigned, and it's not as if 1Bman are impossible to find on the free agent market. On top that, you suggest that bringing in Dunn or Fielder might cause chemistry issues. What do you think the chemistry of the club is going to be like if they bring in a player who has never played in the majors and has sucked in the minors this season? Atleast with Fielder or Dunn, the team knows those two are very good players and have proven it over their major league careers. You also cite that neither Dunn or Fielder has played in the AL. Personally, I don't think that's a big issue, but let's say it is. How much time has Yonder Alonso spent in the AL? No offense intended, but your idea is beyond ridiculous, and the odds of it hurting the club far outweigh the odds of him helping the club. Trading Putz would be overkill, and it would deplete a bullpen that's already becoming very mediocre.

Jose Bautista is a pretty good hitter. I posted it in the catch-all, but he's hit 36 homers in his past 502 plate appearances. You just don't give up any potentially great prospects for him, like Hudson, Flowers, or Viciedo. Danks2, Morel, Torres, or virtually any players below AA...sure, why the hell not.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Jul 22, 2010 -> 12:12 PM) When the Sox made their move from June to all star break Jenks pitched 15 2/3 innings, had a 1.14 era, 18 K, 3 bb's, allowed only 9 hits,.765 whip, and 12 saves.Those are pretty good/great numbers. I guess my point is, when he's on and doing his job the Sox are at their best. There's no reason to think he can't bounce back unless there is some unknown issues with him that haven't come out. Plus, there's no guarantee Thornton or Putz will thrive in the closers role either. I suspect Ozzie will give Thornton a few morw save opps but Jenks will still be the main guy unless he continues to struggle. In the past Jenks has usually responded pretty well when OG has threatened to go by commitee. For those that were skeptical of the Sox because they were beating bad teams, they should be just as skeptical of Jenks' June considering that was mostly against those same bad teams.

QUOTE (Controlled Chaos @ Jul 22, 2010 -> 10:55 AM) Where can you get splits like this? Thanks. www.baseballreference.com Go to any player; hover over game logs, and click on the year you want. Click from any game to any game, and it will tally it up for you.

All I really care is that Aramis Ramirez stays with the Cubs, because trading him to Detroit makes a ton of sense for both the Cubs and Tigers.

QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 07:07 PM) Rather than giving up Beckham... wonder if they'd be interested in Quentin?? I love Quentin but he is so fragile. I figure for that reason alone they'd be less inclined to take him but ya never know. Quentin is far too valuable to the White Sox to get anywhere near full value for him. To the White Sox, he's a great #4-5 hitter who has the potential to hit 30+ homers this season still. To any other team, he's an injury risk who is not good defensively who also happens to be an extremely streaky hitter. You can't deal Quentin in any deal and realistically still call yourselves contenders. A lot of the White Sox season is riding on his shoulders, which is the biggest reason the Sox are coddling him through every single injury.

Jose Bautista over his past 502 plate appearances - .249/.355/.570/.925, 36 HR, 62 XBH, 64 BB, 98 K Not that I'm advocating acquiring him, but there are worse options out there. People are advocating acquiring Luke Scott (myself included), but he didn't reach the majors until he was 27, and didn't have a good, full season until he was 29, and is having the best year of his career at 32. Bautista doesn't turn 30 until October. I obviously haven't done enough research on Bautista to see if this is all a fluke or if he's figured it out or semi-figured it out, but I don't completely dismiss him just because he's having the best year of his career.

Twins win. Thome had 4 plate appearances and no official ABs.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 02:18 PM) It would make no sense for Milwaukee to go after Beckham, as they have Weeks and Lawrie. The Brewers want pitching, pitching, and more pitching. I imagine they'd trade one or two of those guys for pitching.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 01:47 PM) 3 way trade... Hudson to milwaukee Santos to team X for two starting pitching prospects ( who also go to the brewers ) We get fielder I don't know if it's worth Santos and hudson to get fielder but I think you could do it discuss Why would a team give up two pitching prospects for a very raw and unrefined middle reliever when they could use both pitching prospects in middle relief instead? If you are going to get starting pitching prospects from someone, it's going to cost guys like Viciedo, Flowers, Morel, Danks2, and whoever else has value.

Unless the Sox get a third team involved somehow, I really don't see Fielder as a possibility.

What are we even arguing about anymore? All I see are numbers being thrown up and that there's a lot of venom being spewed, but I don't even understand the argument anymore.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 12:37 PM) Take out his 3 worst outings and his ERA drops by over 2 And if you take out Floyd's 3 worst appearances, I'm sure his ERA drops by 1 (or more). The fact of the matter is, you can't just *remove* those from his current totals.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 12:35 PM) He should have never traded him to begin with. FanGraphs just did a good article on this, and how Amaro Jr apparently feels the need to maintain a good farm system while keeping a good product on the field. It has really cost the Phillies this year, because adding Lee to that team would have made them quite a bit more dangerous, and damn near unbeatable in the postseason.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 20, 2010 -> 11:45 PM) It just became a little bit more expensive one for the Tigers. With all their contracts coming off the books, they have at least $20 million to play with, but sinking a lot of it into Ramirez...I think their biggest weakness still is starting pitching after Verlander. What has to happen again for Ordonez to come back in 2011? I'm pretty sure they shed the contracts of Bonderman, Inge, Damon, Laird, Guillen...although Inge is like Joe Crede there, they might make a play to bring him back, but he's not cheap at $6.6 million, it's a lot like our decision with AJ I suppose. Ordonez needs 207 more PAs for his $15 mill option next year to vest. And the Tigers are shedding like $50 million off of their payroll this offseason. They will have money to spend, which is why I think a trade for Aramis Ramirez can't be ruled out. Hopefully the Cubs stay hot and think they can get back in the race and they don't trade Ramirez away. QUOTE (daggins @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 12:13 AM) Overreaction to a badly timed 7 game losing streak. Tigers need like, one starter and one halfway decent bat to be really competitive. Their rotation really isn't that good (Verlander-Bonderman-Porcello-Galaragga-Scherzer really is not that great...talented, but not great), they're getting mediocre production in their middle infield, they are getting no production out of their catchers, and there is reason to believe that Boesch is going to fall off hard in the second half. On top of that, they do have a very difficult second half schedule. It's not going to be easy for the Tigers to win the division. QUOTE (hawksox13 @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 09:49 AM) I don't think that's possible either. From anything I've heard so far it doesn't seem that Teahen is a complete toolbag like Swisher. He's just not very good at baseball. He's a hell of a lot better then Mark Kotsay is right now.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 20, 2010 -> 10:09 PM) Good thing those don't matter for a closer. He pitches so few innings that one bad outing inflates all those stats. All I care about is 20/22 WHIP is actually a pretty good indicator of future success, and it's been a lot of his appearances that have inflated his WHIP (and ERA for that matter). 1.51 is not good. To suggest that they don't matter is a bit short-sighted and ignorant. Sure, all that matters is if he gets the save, but those with a bit of foresight who could look at his peripherals rather than just the raw numbers all saw a game like the final game of that Minnesota series coming from miles away. EDIT: and Jenks is still technically 20 of 21 in save chances. Because he didn't give up the lead in the Minnesota game, he wasn't charged with a blown save. Santos was. BS's are a BS statistic.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 20, 2010 -> 08:24 PM) Luke Scott would be a great fit and hopefully wouldn't cost too much. Assuredly wouldn't cost as much as Dunn, which is a big thing. The Sox might also be able to use Morel as a trading chip to Baltimore too. Josh Bell is a good prospect, but it doesn't appear as though he's very good defensively, and the Orioles have been searching for a 3Bman for quite a while now. It also speaks either to their ineptitude as an organization or how they feel about Josh Bell that they're so willing to go with Tejada at 3B too.