caulfield12

And, for further evidence, don't do what the Marlins just did. They insulted all of baseball by bringing in someone with zero managerial experience. The players won't respect that, and will be laughed at by their opponents. Small surprise they're 2-8 since Jennings was hired and buried for the rest of the season. So Loria will soon be on his 4th manager on the payroll simultaneously. At least Ausmus and Matheny had credibility (especially as hard-nosed catchers) for their tons of playing experience.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 27, 2015 -> 05:42 PM) It is the schtick. Then there is reality. Reality dictates that a team understands the nature of its fanbase and try to cater to them to some extent. It is the entire reason we have never seen a completely sell of like the Cubs can do because of their fan loyalty. It is why the team was looking for near major league ready talent in most of its deals a few years back, instead of waiting for a process that could take half of a decade or more. Even if it failed, a slow erosion of fans being better than the bandwagon all emptying at once, and stupid stuff like BLACK FLAG coming back into vogue with the more meatball portion of the population. It is why as soon as the rebuild even started to look like it was turning a corner, the team went out and bought a bunch of major leaguers at market prices in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon. If Sox fans want to paint themselves as smart, they have to be able to take an honest look at the whole picture, and understand all of the pieces of the puzzle, not just the parts that generate calls on the Score. If you are ignoring parts of the story to paint your narrative, you aren't half as smart as you think. But no, let's go ahead and resume the whining about what a horrible 35 years it has been, and people can't take the horrible pain anymore. WHY ME? WHY DOES OWNERSHIP DO THIS TO ME? I AM ENTITLED TO BETTER! 1) There were almost the exact same number of Chicagoland and NW Indiana fans at White Sox and Cubs games as recently as 2010. It's not "fan loyalty." It's better marketing, a historic park, day baseball, regional tourism and Wrigleyville that make the difference for that extra 25% the Cubs get every year. Along with that, the mystique of 100+ years without winning a World Series. 2) "It's never going to get SO bad that the team will be in danger of leaving." They're simply too profitable, and they have too many synergies with the Bulls to make it a logical move for Reinsdorf. As Balta has pointed out numerous times now, this whole idea of the fanbase not being tolerant or patient enough for a rebuild...well, essentially they have been patiently waiting for the better part of a decade now. Because they committed the same mistake as the Phillies, they held onto veterans too long and couldn't rebuild on the fly. They should have been smart enough to realize even teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels struggle with this concept, and they have HUGE margins for error financially. What we've been doing essentially since the beginning of the 2012 season is REBUILDING, no matter what label you put on it. Would the White Sox have suffered financially if they hadn't spent all that money in the off-season? Of course not, they'd be even more profitable (this season), and attendance would be down another 1,000-2,000 rather than being up about 2,000 per game. In the overall scheme of things, is that COST really worth this whole idea we're struggling with of rebuilding versus "reloading" or whatever KW/Hahn want to call it? Spend wisely and be smarter. Don't get desperate and overpay for guys like Melky, LaRoche, Robertson, Bonifacio and Samardzija. Be patient....follow the process to its logical conclusion. Even if you don't accept the Cubs/Sox comparisons on rebuilding....then follow the example of the Astros. Were they really in a much better position as a fanbase to blow things up? They went through an RSN bankrupting itself and the worst TV ratings in MLB history, but they've come out the other side and are positioned for a 3-5 year run now if everything breaks right. We, on the other hand, might not be. The bandwagon hasn't emptied all at once. It has taken almost a decade of damage inflicted by KW to get to this point. Don't insult the fans with "patsy" managers like Ventura, either....to deflect criticism from the product you put on the field. Be honest with the fans, but then hire the very best coaching staff possible to maximize that talent. Give them the best chance or opportunity to win. Then the fans will respect you and you will start to earn their trust back again.

Robertson pro-positioned by Shark, blows save but bravely Venturas into uncharted multiple inning waters.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2015 -> 05:15 PM) And while you are talking Soria, how come no mention how much they had to pay him to suck and be on the DL last year? He may be available tomorrow. Those are the expenses incurred for putting a winning team out on the field. He was an expensive insurance policy, but became terribly relevant when Rondon was injured, Nathan was injured and Chamberlain became untrustworthy. Nobody cares what Addison Reed did the first half of 2012 because of the 2nd half. In the end, the numbers on the back of the baseball card aren't as reliably used as predictors like KW often claimed...

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2015 -> 04:51 PM) And 2 pf his 3 blown save the White Sox still won the game. Except $46 million dollar closers are paid to save games. And he's now unavailable tomorrow because he had to be overextended at least three times now into multiple inning save opportunities in the last couple of weeks.

Fun with numbers. Addison Reed in 2012 through the beginning of July, 2-1, 13/14 saves, 4 holds. David Robertson, 9/12 in saves. And the Minnesota Twins are now in 1st place. The Tigers are just 1 GB without Verlander, just beat the A's two out of three while scoring just 4 runs in 3 days. Joakim Soria is 15/16 converting saves, and "only" getting paid $7 million.

I notice that Jeff Banister's increasingly becoming a very solid major league manager (as predicted). Managers DO make a difference. There's no counting stat for it. The sabes world can spend another decade coming up with something more accurate than pythagorean. It's just something you learn to feel or pick up on being around someone for 140+ games, watching the way everyone responds to them and the respect they demand.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ May 27, 2015 -> 09:17 AM) But if Cooper is the manager, then you need to hire a pitching coach. Juan Nieves. You cannot finish this season w 3 young pitchers in Sale, Q and Rodon not getting the full attention of a pitching coach. But Herm Schneider would still be the most experienced choice for manager. He would be a "safe" pick In terms of wanting to enjoy the last four months of the baseball season, I'd happily take Herm Schneider as a choice, too. A female coach. A computer algorithm. A plant. An i-watch. The Bill Veeck idea of fans managing the team. Caesar from Planet of the Apes.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 27, 2015 -> 09:19 AM) Everything that makes Cooper a good coach would make him an awful manager. Fine, then you've got McEwing or Capra. If you don't like those, Joel Skinner at AAA Charlotte...he's had a lot of big league experience around the Indians.

Here's a team in a VERY similar situation to the White Sox, and Bryan Price will certainly be fired any day now...but they have the All-Star game to host and don't want to take a complete attendance PR hit if they can help it, either. They have a very solid core in Chapman, Cueto, Leake, Frazier, Cosart, Mesoraco, Bruce and Votto.....and difficult decisions to make on whether to keep Chapman, Votto, Bruce and/or Cueto OR simply completely blow things up. Even if the Reds play very well between now and July 31, it won't be good enough. Even if by some small miracle they entertained wild card hopes heading into September, who's in their rotation? Not Lorenzen and Iglesias. Their innings limit will have been reached by then, most likely. It is time for the reboot to begin, if only behind the scenes. W. Jocketty has been accused of lacking energy in recent years. Time for him to change that perception by marshaling his scout network and scouring the minors for big talent. Jocketty's preferred way of making a team better has always been trading for/signing veterans. That won't work here now.(A suggestion: Why don't the Reds go find themselves a young, analytics type, and install him as an assistant GM? I have no idea who that might be, but they might.) No matter. The Reds can't piecemeal it. They've tried that. You can't contend and reload at the same time. This isn't UK basketball. There are no instant makeovers. Nine Ls in a row is unfortunate by any measure. But also instructive. Time for the top bananas to start seeing the tea leaves for what they are. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/daugherty-...-weds/28004215/

QUOTE (SCCWS @ May 27, 2015 -> 09:03 AM) Who are you going to replace him with??? No one is coming in from outside the organization without a multi year contract. So in your rational, you hire another manager for will say 3 years and he doesn't work out so in the off-season you hire another one and have 3 on the payroll for next year. That ain't happening. So you have to hire within the organization. Harold Baines?? Buddy Bell?? Herm Schneider?? Kenny Williams??? How about Coop as interim manager for rest of year. Replace him with Nieves who is being paid by Boston anyway. OR you stcik w Robin, get a better draft pick and replace him in offseason when the number of candidates are much greater Cooper is the main one whose loyalty to the organization trumps his loyalty to Ventura (like Cora with Guillen). Buddy Bell would be another choice, or Nick Capra. Finally, McEwing or Mark Parent (I wrote Mark Salas for some reason, haha) if Ventura recommended they stay on in his place. (And I'm sure he wouldn't, not his style to be petty or vengeful). That's four. Personally, I would be happy with Cooper or McEwing (because he's a big LaRussa disciple, the equivalent of Martinez with Maddon almost). But no 2-3 year contracts for the interim manager. He's got to earn it. Otherwise, you wait until the offseason and do a full managerial search with due diligence and a full field of candidates, which hasn't happened since 2003-2004 with this organization.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/juan-uribe-sa...446266-mlb.html Sox favorite Juan Uribe continues to have an incredible and blessed career....moving on to ATL, Tim Brown column.

What is the White Sox "brand" right now? What does being a White Sox player represent...to the players, and to the fans? What are they trained in from the very beginning, the first day they sign and go to rookie ball? Most other organizations now have their own version/s of "Cardinals' Way"...but we've never developed a book/system, and it's 1) because not enough of our minor leaguers make an impact on the major league results, or 2) we've never taken the time to map out a strategy of instruction from Point A to Point B with all the scouts as well as major/minor league coaches working in collaboration. If everyone's not inculcating the Steverson system...or whatever Thome's doing, how can we expect them to just magically adapt at the major league level when a number of bad habits have already developed, to the point where it's too late to fix them in-season or the swings need to be completely overhauled from a mechanical standpoint (see Beckham, Borchard, Viciedo, Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, etc.)

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 27, 2015 -> 08:06 AM) How can you not see the selection bias issue with this? Let me ask you this: how many teams have ever fired their manager while the team was playing well? Managers are only ever fired when the team is underperforming, therefore natural regression to the mean will see the team improve regardless. There was a Freakonomics study about this years ago showing no difference between the ROS performance of bad teams that fired their managers versus bad teams that kept their managers. By that argument, no CEO or manager or coach should ever be fired, except for gross negligence. Unless you accept the fact that the White Sox actual or real "mean" is 0-5 games under .500 (and last place in the division) and are contented with that level of performance....then we'll be stuck in that same pattern of continual and consistent mediocrity for another 20-30 years.

Torre, Cox, LaRussa, Ventura Somehow, one of them doesn't quite belong in the same conversation. If Ventura goes on to a 30+ year managerial career and enters the Hall of Fame, I'll eat my hat.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 27, 2015 -> 07:37 AM) My pick would be Don Cooper. I don't think he'll be part of the next managing regime, unless he is the manager himself, so might as well give him that chance now. He deserves it after all these years in the organization There's a good chance he's a disaster, which is fine by me. No different then what is going now. At best, his fiery personality could light a fire under this team. His personality will be good to grab some much needed headlines even when we stink. Keep us somewhat relevent. Similar to Ozzie in that regard. Why not? And, has been pointed out about 1,000 times in the last 2-3 seasons, what has Cooper done that's so great....recently? It's certainly not impossible a change of scenery is needed, that things have gotten stale for him after nearly three decades. (Longer than most posters here have been alive). There's just WAY too much talent among Sale/Samardzija/Quintana/Rodon to be getting these kinds of results on a consistent basis. It's a win/win situation. If Cooper doesn't work out, it was probably time for everyone to move on...the critics get their way (and they start bringing in new blood hopefully). If he does succeed, that means the team responded and played well.

We had Ozzie. Ventura was the anti-Ozzie. It worked, for awhile, but then the Tigers' talent won out and the pitchers wore down in 2012. To anyone who has followed the game of baseball for most of their lives, it's very obvious that whatever's happening right now from a managerial standpoint, it's just not working and hasn't been working for a long time. (Just like in the Rockies' example...Hurdle was a hard-ass and then they turned to Tracy in 2009, who was another polar opposite. Going back to 2002, Hurdle was the opposite of the soft-spoken Buddy Bell, exactly what was needed at that particular time as well.) So, if it's not related to anything Ventura's doing, then our entire minor league coaching staff (in terms of those working specifically with position players)....they all need to go, right? We're either not coaching/instructing them well in the fundamentals, OR we're bringing in fundamentally-flawed players, OR BOTH.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2015 -> 07:21 AM) Which ones doomed the White Sox? They gave up 10 runs. They all were earned. There was an error but that meant nothing. If Carlos Sanchez bobbles a ball or Jose Abreu drops a pop up, as much as you think it is Robin's fault, they still would do the same thing if someone else was sitting in the dugout. We might as well start a thread about acquiring Bryce Harper and Mike Trout. The chances are just as good that happens. This thread was created to hopefully generate more Robin bashing. Last night was not on the manager. "I can't speak for any other sport, but in the history of the game it doesn't work," O'Dowd said. "A lot of times when you make a change, you've got deep-seeded (seated) problems that don't go away overnight. And usually your personnel is not very good either. History shows making a change is not an elixir." "They only work when you have a specific plan in mind of why you're making the change," O'Dowd said. "If you make a change for change sake, you have absolutely no chance for it working." ....... 2010-2015 (0/17 in terms of a managerial change leading to the playoffs, although it should be noted Kirk Gibson came in at the end of 2010 and quickly led Arizona to the playoffs the following season)

Then having any sort of opinion about the White Sox while Ventura is still the manager is a waste of bandwidth as well. Sometimes it seems the Sox want to cut off their nose to spite their face. So be it.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 27, 2015 -> 06:33 AM) Why is this a thread today? How did Ventura lose last night's game? I don't think the White Sox have a dumb fan base but people looking at this site lately would think otherwise. This has nothing to do with last night, specifically. It's an accumulation of EVERYTHING since September, 2012. To suggest we're a "smart fanbase" is to imagine that there's any type of precedent in Sox history for passing 8-10 teams in the 2nd half of a season when there simply isn't...or that we can ignore 4 teams in our own division being in a better position for the playoffs. Sure, we can feed the "light and hope" wolf all we want, have our pie in the sky "comeback" rationalizations, but it's going to take a different manager to get it done. It's that simple.

At this point, there's almost nothing to lose. We're trailing every single team in the AL, other than the A's. If it doesn't work, we have the luxury of finding another manager in the off-season and "rebooting" again. Surely, Hahn has a "big board" of potential managers in mind as well.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/5791926/ in the 2000's, they worked out 9 of 34 times (and two of them were by the Rockies/O'Dowd, who curiously speaks out against them in the article) in terms of the new manager leading the team to the playoffs 2010 7 changes (Baltimore twice), KC, Orioles, DBacks, Mariners all finish last, Cubs 5th, Marlins 3rd (0/7) 2011 4 changes....Ozzie for Cooper at end of season (3rd place), A's and Nats 3rd, Marlins 5th (0/4) 2012 2 changes......Astros last, Indians next to last (Alomar, Jr., at very end of the season) (0/2) 2013 1 change.....Sandberg for Manuel, 4th place (0/1) 2014 3 changes....Astros/Rangers 4th, DBacks last (0/3) 2015 2 changes....Counsell for Roenicke, Dan Jennings for Mike Redmond 2010-2015 (0/17 in terms of a managerial change leading to the playoffs, although it should be noted Kirk Gibson came in at the end of 2010 and quickly led Arizona to the playoffs the following season) Basically, the odds are 20% (in terms of a change leading to the playoffs) in the last 15 years. Do the White Sox under Ventura have the same odds if he continues as manager? Dodgers outfielder Juan Pierre, a part of the Marlins' turnaround in 2003, said it's not always true that players on underachieving teams want the manager pushed out the door. "But maybe it's a different personality or a different voice," Pierre said. "I'm not a parent, but I know some parents can tell their child to do something over and over again. Then maybe they have an aunt or an uncle or a neighbor tell the child the same thing, and the child listens. "It applies to kids, and sometimes it applies to professional athletes." In Houston in '04, the situation called for urgency. "Garner came in with the attitude, 'I've only got three months. I don't care if I hurt feelings, you'll do it my way,'" Ausmus said. ..... In 2009, O'Dowd said he made the move because he felt Tracy could quickly implement his priorities (despite Hurdle's leading the team to the 2007 World Series, just two years prior). What makes such a move work? New strategies? A different voice? Shock value? All of the aforementioned changes figured in those successful changes. With the Rockies, all have applied to the turnaround. "I can't speak for any other sport, but in the history of the game it doesn't work," O'Dowd said. "A lot of times when you make a change, you've got deep-seeded (seated) problems that don't go away overnight. And usually your personnel is not very good either. History shows making a change is not an elixir." "They only work when you have a specific plan in mind of why you're making the change," O'Dowd said. "If you make a change for change sake, you have absolutely no chance for it working." Top 10 midseason improvements since 1900 after a managerial change (not including changes in the first or last 20 games of the season): #1: 1989 Blue Jays 12-24 (.333) under Jimy Williams 77-49 (.626) under Cito Gaston Midseason improvement: +.293 #2: 1940 Cardinals 15-29 (.341) under Ray Blades and Mike Gonzalez 69-40 (.633) under Billy Southworth Midseason improvement: +.292 #3: 1912 Indians 54-71 (.470) under Harry Davis 21-7 (.750) under Joe Birmingham Midseason improvement: +.280 #4: 1999 Angels 51-82 (.383) under Terry Collins 19-10 (.655) under Joe Maddon Midseason improvement: +.272 #5: 2009 Rockies 18-28 (.391) under Clint Hurdle 74-42 (.638) under Jim Tracy Midseason improvement: +.247 #6: 1988 Padres 16-30 (.348) under Larry Bowa 67-48 (.583) under Jack McKeon Midseason improvement: +.235 #7: 1925 Cardinals 13-25 (.342) under Branch Rickey 64-51 (.556) under Rogers Hornsby Midseason improvement: +.214 #8: 1980 Twins 54-71 (.432) under Gene Mauch 23-13 (.639) under Johnny Goryl Midseason improvement: +.207 #9: 2002 Rockies 6-16 (.2727) under Buddy Bell 67-73 (.4786) under Clint Hurdle Midseason improvement: +.2059 #10: 1969 Angels 11-28 (.2821) under Bill Rigney 60-63 (.4878) under Lefty Phillips Midseason improvement: +.2057 source, baseball-reference.com

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees--t...433447-mlb.html Wonder if we'll be able to draw any conclusions from the new "spin rate" data on our pitchers... Top-end exit velocity, like spin, isn’t always a proxy for the best players. Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Miguel Cabrera appear on one top 10 list. Pedro Alvarez, Melky Cabrera, Mark Trumbo, Howie Kendrick and Joc Pederson appear on two apiece. And while none of them is a slouch – particularly Pederson – they’re not among the best players in baseball, either.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/...ttendance.shtml White Sox have the 9th highest attendance (per game) increase in the majors so far in 2015 despite being the 2nd worst team in the AL, and the worst statistically. Seattle and San Diego have had very active off-seasons in the last two cycles. Oakland, Cleveland, Washington and Pittsburgh were either playoff teams or had strong playoff aspirations. Finally, the Mets had all that young pitching, and Harvey returning back from TJ surgery. Interestingly enough, the Rangers, Phillies, Braves, Rockies, Rays and Twins were all in the 2nd-5th year of rebuilding cycles. Can we say that all of them, along with Angels (they made the playoffs, were expected to win the division again, have the best player in baseball, etc.) and Yankees fans....are "fairweather/bandwagon" fans? Are Miami and Arizona fans too impatient for winning teams?

“We have the most passionate fans, and I think that’s the beauty of Philadelphia,” he said. “I would never intentionally disparage our fans – that’s not how I go about my business, that’s not what I feel is in the best interest of the organization. We’re fan-driven. This is an entertainment business, and we need the support of our fans, and we’ve gotten tremendous support. I apologize for the context or the words that I used.” But, the point is he chose his words poorly while being the general manager of a team that’s sported a top-5 payroll in the last 3 years, without sporting a winning record in any of those years (and, very not likely this year, either). Clearly the reaction wouldn’t be as strong if the same words came from the general manager in Boston or Chicago… “I think it probably would be a lot different if we were fighting for first place, or won the division the last two or three years,” Amaro said. “We haven’t done that, and I understand that. Some of the decisions we made were great, and some didn’t work and were not-so-great. The way I look at it is that we are now making progress. I think the thing that bothers me the most about this stuff that happened today and the quotes I made is that I don’t want to detract from the fact that there are some really positive things happening here in a way that the fans can focus on those. Hopefully they can focus on the progress as opposed to my misguided quotes.” Sounds familiar. Keep in mind, the Phillies last won the World Series in 2009, not 2005. Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillie...R4KKEhzj84cd.99