caulfield12

They can get on long winning streaks, but that probably means Rodon at the back end, and obviously our TOP 3 has to get their acts together. Pretty obvious stuff, I know. At any rate, the Noesi/Danks situation is one of many blocking success right now...but not as much as Sale/Samardzija/Q pitching like garbage.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 4, 2015 -> 08:24 PM) Possibly. But we don't know, really. It could be a result of poor team prep on the manager's side, or it could just be that those guys are sucking. That's why I've always stayed off the "FIRE RV" bandwagon -- I don't like to draw conclusions without evidence to believe them. Just because it's plausible doesn't mean it's any more likely than any other outcome. I prefer to blame the players, because I KNOW that they can affect their own performance and preparation. Because believing the players are all terrible (getting worse) or than Hahn made a slew of mistakes (other than Robertson) is just too terrible to contemplate. It's psychology 101. We want to believe that a new manager could come in (just like 2012) and instantly make this team competitive again. Otherwise, we're talking about another half decade of struggles/irrelevance, new GM, etc.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2015 -> 02:19 PM) Anything those in bold contribute at the big league level would be considered a plus, in my opinion. If those 6 are considered the future.......then yikes!!!!!!! Just to be clear, I meant Erik Johnson and not Micah Johnson.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 4, 2015 -> 05:28 PM) The White Sox believe that the best thing for the development of a prospect is to push them until they reach a level where they struggle. Once they're at that point, they believe that is when the struggling prospect can be worked with to correct those issues. IMO their ultimate test of this is Courtney Hawkins. I personally am unconvinced by this philosophy and I don't think the evidence is that it has been successful for this franchise at all. In fact, I feel the guys who actually are making the big leagues and having success are the guys who had someone else in their way and were forced to stay down in the minors longer - Semien got stuck there last year once Gillaspie and Beckham were back, Eduardo Escobar got a full year in Charlotte before coming up as a bench player and then was worked in the minors by the Twins again before he had a really solid 2014 campaign. OTOH we're watching Micah who leapfrogged AAA almost completely unsurprisingly need time to adapt to the bigs. That's why I have SOME hopes for Erik Johnson, although they're not going to return to pre-2014 levels. Same with Matt Davidson, to a lesser extent. And realistically, if you look at how long it took for Crede and Rowand to become everyday players, over a 2-3 year timeframe at the big league level, that's the ideal way to do it. The other big examples had fatal flaws (Borchard), couldn't hit a fastball (Fields/Viciedo) or control the strike zone and swinging at pitches out of it, couldn't hit well enough to justify his defense (Anderson) or just failed for a number of mystery reasons, like Beckham. With Beckham, you can say he changes or changed mechanics too frequently, lacking in confidence, overthinking, went through too many position changes, was never allowed to experience failure and overcome it at the minor league level...or maybe simply the fact that a lot of college hitters can look great (especially with aluminum bats) but it doesn't translate at the next level with superior competition (see Alex Gordon for another example of how long it took for THE best college hitter to adapt, part of it was also the pressure to be "the next George Brett" and play 3B). Or the "Ozzie hated him" theory some have used with Anderson/Beckham. Fallback option.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 4, 2015 -> 02:08 PM) If this team continues down the current path, then he's going to be #2 on my list of people who are in the way. No matter how many times you guys say this wasn't "all in", he bet a lot on this season. Traded for a 1 year rental player, spent $50 million this season, basically blew any chance of FA spending in 2016 if the 2015 team wasn't competitive. At the least we were supposed to get close. He bought into Sale and Abreu and Ventura and the supporting cast being able to be right there this year and as of right now it looks like we spent $50 million to tread water. And the timing of that next wave of younger players (Anderson, Hawkins, Montas, Danish, Johnson and Davidson hopefully) puts them in a difficult situation where....as has happened over and over again the last 15 years....there's simply not enough patience for "on the job" training because of the "all-in/win now" mentality the fanbase demands in order to attend games regularly or consistently. They can't afford to break in all those players at key positions in 2016-17 and still compete. Which means trades and/or FA. Except if the additional resources are cut off, the ONLY way to compete is to hit possible Samardzija and Alexei Ramirez trades over the Dan Ryan Expressway and into Kirby Puckett's old backyard.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 4, 2015 -> 02:03 PM) 63-99 73-89 8-14 since he was named GM. Yet, for some reason, with no inside knowledge, he can do no wrong, and everyone else can do nothing right. I absolutely agree with you. It's a little concept known as joint or shared responsibility. Ozzie had it right in 2005 before he put himself ahead of the team. Hahn, KW and Ventura are either part of the problem...or part of the solution. VERY VERY SIMPLE. It's Reinsdorf's job to sort it out.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:57 PM) Better question is what has Hahn put on the field to not show that he sucks at his job? I absolutely don't think he sucks, but so far, the results under his tenure have been terrible with very little progress being shown in multiple areas. AMEN. There's no way to argue with that. So far, the results are far from conclusive, and he's going to get at least one more year, if not two, but the general trend line is not positive.

This whole forum is becoming ridiculous. Nobody "hates" anyone, or at least, if they do...in the context of sports, it's ridiculous. I was just asked to defend my position, then the response is "it hurts my eyes" because nobody has the patience anymore for anything that isn't a soundbite or "SABRE stats burn" which is just positioning statistics in a way to attempt to make others look dumb/er half the time or exhibit superiority. You can't have it both ways. Either we have intelligent discussions or we just shout at each other...and Dick Allen tries to score points against me or vice-versa. Rattled? Is this a boxing match or a forum? Do moderators get points for how many posters they can upset or provoke arguments with in a single day? Is the main point for everyone just to insult each other out of frustration with how the White Sox are playing and the state of organization in general? Well, I guess if it's preventing some people here from kicking their dogs, throwing the remote control through the screen or beating their wives, GREAT.

QUOTE (raBBit @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:40 PM) How did I insult you? I think you're just insecure. This is a message board, if you're going to make baseless points, you're going to be asked to back them up. I don't have a problem with you and don't pay attention to how cordial you've been but I do pay attention to you making silly proclamations based on your predisposed beliefs (See, KW/RV suck, Hahn that GOAT). Back up your posts and we can hold hands through this tough time. Jesus. Should I go around correcting everyone's grammar as well? There's a lot of people who annoy me as well, but I put up with them because it's a White Sox fans MESSAGE BOARD. It's supposed to be fun and enjoyable. What has KW done since 2005 that makes him NOT SUCK? If you have a predisposed belief (or non-predisposed, because everyone here, of course, doesn't have a single bias and analyzes statistics and players just as dispassionately as a FanGraphs algorithm) that he's so great, what's YOUR ARGUMENT? Hahn doesn't suck. But he's not the savior, either. Robertson and Duke needed to be added, Jennings has been fine or better than expected. Micah Johnson was pushed too aggressively (and, once again...should we blame Hahn, KW or Ventura????????) Samardzija didn't cause us to give up any great talent but he's obviously not enough to push the rotation over the top when the back end is terrible Hahn wasted a lot of money on Bonifacio when he had 4-5 versions of that same player LaRoche had too many similarities with Dunn, came from NL, and you shouldn't invest that much into a "win now" player at his age unless you're close enough to winning now, which MAY be in 2016 (or may not, now) Melky Cabrera is the main questionable add...because of his age, the PED's, the fact he's not bringing plus offense or defense and he's getting older and we don't know the physiological effects of aforementioned PED's use on his body because we're not trained doctors Get off your high horse. Other than the minor leagues, I haven't seen anything that would make we want to come close to holding hands with you, lol. We have Sale and Abreu to be proud about....and Quintana/Eaton/Avi to a lesser extent. Other than that, neither Hahn nor KW will be winning any awards because you actually have to produce on the field of play. And trotting out a subpar manager (and, once again...do we blame Reinsdorf, KW or Hahn) doesn't help matters, either. He's certainly not maximizing the talent of his roster, that's for sure.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:36 PM) Personally, I do not want both Micah and Eaton starting in the same outfield. I'd rather just keep one and move the other. Their skillset is too similar and this team already lacks power (not that Melky has any homers but I'm just saying for now and the long run). Especially with the lack of power from RF, 3B, SS/2B and catcher. You can't afford another offensive black hole. Now if they had 3-4 guys putting up 25-35 homers or 80-85+ RBI's, that would be a totally different situation. But that's not reality for now. If Anderson can't stay in the middle infield, he's the most logical one to shift to OF. The problem with that is we're locked in with Cabrera in 2016-17 and/or that would mean the Avisail Garcia experiment (at least defensively), has failed. I suppose Avi could be moved to DH full-time in 2017 if his bat holds up well enough.

QUOTE (raBBit @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:32 PM) Regardless, it's totally worth pondering about your irrelevant tangent of Micah Johnson playing for the A's and their ballpark in a thread about the White Sox's lack of performance. Do you really enjoy policing my posts so much...? Sigh. Please just block me or whatever so I don't have to worry about upsetting you with "irrelevant" tangents. Your life would be so much easier and enjoyable, if it's REALLY that upsetting or bothersome. Life is too short. Really.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:25 PM) that would be the worst defensive combo in history Carney Lansford will fix them. Yeah, you're probably right. And I don't think Micah could be hidden playing LF or CF in that huge stadium 81 games per year. They would run on him more than other teams ran on Pods or Juan Pierre (or J. Damon).

QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:23 PM) I do think the org was way too stubborn about Avi's bad defense and not moving him to LF this past offseason. I bet they would have done that if they acquired Heyward. And we'd somehow be worse off with Heyward, because that would have meant trading Anderson and either Montas/Danish...and then we'd have that same hole to fill again next year. If nothing else, the presence of Cabrera and Garcia keeps them from forcing guys like Anderson and Hawkins and even Trayce Thompson up to the major league level where they'd quickly be exposed (just like Viciedo).

I'm coming around to the fact that Carlos Sanchez will end up starting, disappointing everyone who expected him to continue his AAA hitting form (disregarding his 700ish minor league OPS history and 100+ AB's for the Sox at the tail end of 2014) and that Micah Johnson instead ends up being Billy Hamilton-Lite for the A's, lol. And emerges as Marcus Semien's DP partner for the next half decade. Well, because it's the White Sox.

What's amazing to me is how much better Billy Beane has gotten at this rebuilding on the fly thing with his everyday line-up. I still think trading Josh Donaldson was insane, and statistics would continue to back that up....but probably they just had a personality conflict and BB wasn't going to be the one leaving, hard to say what actually happened out there. If you look at how players like Vogt and Reddick have stepped up, it just seems like every year they have all these guys (Canha would be another) like Sam Fuld or CoCo Crisp that overachieve and outperform expectations when they put on that A's uniform. AJ Preller deserves a lot of credit, too, in SD, for really going almost crazy with all the acquisitions...but they have worked out well because he has a good coaching staff IMO. We kept wondering how all those pieces would fit together, but they have....trading Maybin and Seth Smith, Quentin retiring, everything has seemingly fallen into place. And Shields was a bargain in the end as we all had a feeling in the NL West he was going to outpitch his 2014 peripherals and especially his woeful playoff performance.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:09 PM) If this was KW's team, he would have brought in a veteran to start at 2nd base as opposed to handing it over to Johnson/Sanchez. Like you said, I don't get the KW bashing at all, as it seems like a coping mechanism for people to not lose faith in Hahn. Or traded for over the hill versions of Utley and perhaps Cole Hamels to make a typical "bold" move with little long-term payoff (see Manny Ramirez addition). Or, more likely, Utley for 2B and Ryan Howard for 1B/DH (subsidized heavily, like Thome)....or Josh Hamilton to make another big splash PR-wise.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 4, 2015 -> 01:00 PM) Nobody picked us to win anything, including most fans. This team isn't good on paper or the field. I thought some of the movesHahn made this off-season were head scratchers and said as much. He hasn't committed one way or the other. We aren't winning or rebuilding. We're just treading water. It was a strange off-season IMO. Looking back, Melky Cabrera statistically LOOKED good (albeit erratic/inconsistent), but most of us had a number of concerns going forward. It's not that he was blocking anyone in particular in the minors...and it's easy to say we should have pursued Nelson Cruz (another famous PED's case) if we were REALLY interested in putting together a "win now" type of team. Colby Rasmus was another option. Aoki. Yasmani Tomas. Rios. Nick Markakis. Obviously we weren't going to spend on Hanley Ramirez for 3B/LF/DH, but that would have been a bolder move (adding just Ramirez/Samardzija and Robertson) than what they ended up doing, which was trying to stretch their budget over too many players without really getting a true impact guy (too expensive). In hindsight, they also could have gone after someone like Jake Marisnick who would have brought them affordability, enthusiasm and premium defense to offset all the damage Avisail Garcia was going to do defensively to your outfield. In the end, Viciedo/DeAza clearly wasn't working, but I'm sure two or three years now we'll probably all feel Cabrera was an over-reach and misallocation of resources unless he just puts on a shocking power display when the weather heats up again.

If you look at the Cardinals hiring Matheny or the Tigers hiring Ausmus, two guys without experience being expected to IMPROVE playoff-contending teams (or even expecting to make or win the World Series instantly), those are BOLD moves. For the White Sox, Ventura was 90% not being Ozzie. It might as well have been Jim Thome or Paul Konerko as player manager for all the difference it would have made. Someone who wouldn't bring undue attention to himself, fight for control with KW...basically create daily PR nightmares/drama for the organization on a weekly basis. If they wanted to be REALLY bold, it would have been guys like Aaron Rowand or Carl Everett, who we STILL keep hearing over and over again were the critical leadership elements of that 2005 World Series team, and have been thrown out there as reasons why the post-2005 run teams underachieved their talent or skill level. Or the Astros taking Larry Dierker out of the broadcasting booth, etc. Don Cooper would be a bold choice, for example. Not sure it would be a good one because of his pricky/surly personality, but we'd definitely see a different product IMO. (Some would argue he's simply gotten too comfortable in his 27 years with one organization and the modern game has passed him by, but guys like Ned Yost and Clint Hurdle have adjusted, Showalter, etc.) I'm surprised we haven't seen Bobby Valentine or Davey Johnson (is he still alive) mentioned, lol. Whitey Herzog, haha.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 4, 2015 -> 12:24 PM) Attendance is everything to this organization. Eventually it will either be a personnel move, or selling players, if attendance doesn't keep up with their projections. See also 2013. It's got to be a major factor for the Brewers for one, keeping their fanbase satisfied and creating the perception (at least) they're trying to do everything in their power to remain competitive this season (especially with Wainright on the shelf). Still, the Cardinals Nation machine just keeps humming, as happened before when their starting pitchers have gone down to major injuries like Carpenter and Wainright in the past, Jaime Garcia/Wacha more recently, etc.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 4, 2015 -> 10:40 AM) 2011 - the Ozzie Guillen quits year 2013 - the $120 million disaster 2014 - ok, legitmately "seems like we're trying to rebuild" 2015 - shaping up to be a $115 million disaster. They're pretty disturbingly close to that already. and 2007/2009 were pretty terrible as well. If not for those momentary blips in 2008/10/12, you'd have a decade of suck, and we're certainly nearing a decade without even the playoffs as the only major market team in the division, which is pretty incredible when you think of some of the advantages we SHOULD have been are unable to exploit (part of this offset by the crazy spending of Illitch, but also the fact that they either developed or traded for superstar players and we haven't, other than Sale/Abreu).

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 4, 2015 -> 11:52 AM) I'm guessing because the team that's ahead is universally considered to have much less talent than the teams behind. The opposite is true for us against KC/DET. Also it was a article on the White Sox, I'm sure he'll get around to the West. As for the rest of the year: yeah, it's possible. They could come back. But again, it isn't likely, and I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Sox may want to be early sellers. Now, "early sellers" still isn't until mid-June, realistically, so maybe it's pointless to talk about now, sure. In 2001, you had Wells and Thomas go down early and were playing guys like Jose Canseco and pushing all your young pitchers into the rotation for experience, guys like Buehrle, Garland, Danny Wright, Wells...and they did get going in the middle of the summer to fight back to .500 and over (I was in St. Louis for some games that July), but there was never a feeling they were REALLY in it because of that 14-29 start. The Twins were the shocking front-runner (remember, all the rumors about the team being relocated were out there then) and the Indians were the team expected by everyone to win, at least with Thomas/Wells out, and the fact that the Indians had the dominant team for most of the 90's in the AL Central and this was their very final run before dismantling all those great offensive players (their first rebuild of the decade, the second one would come 6-7 years later). Obviously, there could be the same or a similar article on the Indians as well. Kluber has fallen off a cliff, and that fact alone, along with their offensive struggles and shaky bullpen put them in the same situation. It's not like someone's going to shell out anything for Michael Bourn or Nick Swisher, etc.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/pro...p?P=Tim-Beckham To add insult to injury, we probably picked the wrong Beckham as well...

Luhnow also replenished the farm system, and when last season ended, Luhnow believed the time had come to contend. He furiously upgraded his roster, adding Gattis, outfielder Cory Rasmus, shortstop Jed Lowrie and relievers Pat Neshek and Luke Gregerson. Just as important, he hired someone to make it all work. Hinch has won his players over with his consistency and communication and especially with his handling of the lineup and bullpen. Those years of losses were part of a larger blueprint. As painful as they were, Astros owner Jim Crane believed the time had come for a complete franchise reconstruction. His hope was that once the Astros were competitive again, they'd be positioned to contend for years to come. http://m.mlb.com/news/article/122181832/ri...ey-are-for-real Astros Starting to Believe They are for Real

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 3, 2015 -> 10:12 PM) I could see everybody getting dealt except for Sale and Abreu and Avi and Eaton. Think about it, there's no reason to keep ANY of last season's acquisitions and I think if we deal LaRoche and Melky early enough, we'll get something for them that's good. Cmon. An NL team will want Melky's bat. How bout the Mets or Cardinals? Trade Robertson first and ask for a haul of prospects. The guy is amazing. Somebody must need a nails closer. Then trade LaRoche. Try to get 3 minor leaguers for him, one with good potential. Then trade Shark and go for a HAUL. Somebody must need a starter that is a contender. Then trade Duke. Sox will get a ton of players for these guys. Also trade Lexi. Again we should be able to get a lot from a contender that needs a good ss. And trade Boni for anything. Also trade Soto for anything. There's no emotional involvement between the fans and any of these guys, so please Mr. Hahn, start thinking TRADES and rebuild the team this year for Gardy or Leyland. The Cardinals already are set in the outfield, and have Piscotty and Grichuk as well. No sale on that one. The one asset they're going to be most interested in is Jeff Samardzija.

Worst Road Trip Since the Donner Party... Liked that tagline from southsidesox.com