caulfield12

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 02:45 PM) You're scaring me man, you're making it sound like KW is ready to overpay in a big way. And not like "oh he's just throwing in an extra prospect" but "he's all in, putting in Viciedo, Floyd, and Reed." Please please don't be the case. Which means Jordan Danks is our new LFer and Brett Myers is our closer in 2013 at $10 million, with his 91-92 MPH fastball. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Wasn't the point of trading Santos that we don't have to pay a closer more than minimum salary? And then we're going to pay Myers like he's one of the 3-5 best closers in baseball when clearly he's not elite?? It also means we wouldn't be able to keep AJ or Youkilis for sure.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 02:35 PM) Liriano-------------too easy. Thornton after a horrid April last year finished with a 3.32 ERA and 63 k's in 60 IP. This year he's at 3.70 with 37 k's in 41 innings. Not the Thornton of old but definitely productive and valuable. The difference is we would be using him as a spot starter and out of the pen for two months, then keeping him as a starter for 2013. What's Thornton going to do to help our starting rotation in 2013? We already have Santiago, Septimo, Veal and Santos Rodriguez for that spot in the pen in future years, at less than 1/10th the cost. We have no idea what's going to happen with Sale, Quintana or Peavy down the stretch. Liriano would be the only thing standing between us and Axelrod/Castro starting must-win games down the stretch. I'll take the experienced vet in the heart of a pennant race (he's been there before) over anyone we can promote from our minor league system. Maybe Ryan has a sense of humor and would rather see the Sox win the division than Tigers/Leyland/DD.

QUOTE (hammerhead johnson @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 02:35 PM) MVP votes and league leaders - that's pretty funny. Has Kenny Williams drafted an all star caliber hitter since he got the gig in 2001? White Sox haven't put as much into the draft and have had a lower draft position with just a few exceptions. He's acquired Quentin, Alexei, DeAza and Viciedo...doesn't matter where they came from. I'm pretty sure Chris Young of the D-Backs made an All-Star team at some point, although I could be wrong. We didn't surrender anything in terms of talent for Rios, who made two All-Star teams with the Jays. Nobody's downgrading Williams because we got Jenks, Santos, Humber and Quintana on the cheap from other organizations. Everyone's complaining we missed on Trout, but every team in the majors but the Yankees (because he grew up in their backyard) and Angels were wrong on him. And the Angels fired the scout, Eddie Bane, who discovered him and cultivated the relationship.

A's finally lost a game. Chris Carter has 6 homers in 40 some AB's. +9 Angels +8 White Sox +8 Tigers +8 A's +6 Orioles

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:09 PM) No problem. I'll stop. You ask politely, Greg responds in turn. Did you get that 3rd person speaking style from another Kansan, Bob Dole?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:10 PM) Liriano in the bullpen in 2012 7 1/3 IP 7 H 4 R 4 ER 7 BB 9 K 5.07 ERA Your hatred of Thornton makes you not see the truth. I'd take Liriano, I've seen enough of Humber, but you really undervalue Thornton. I think Hawk is the last Sox GM to make a trade with Minnesota, and it was extremely minor. Name any set-up guy in baseball making $5.5 million or more who has been less productive the last 24 months... I don't think you can come up with more names than K-Rod.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:10 PM) Liriano in the bullpen in 2012 7 1/3 IP 7 H 4 R 4 ER 7 BB 9 K 5.07 ERA Your hatred of Thornton makes you not see the truth. I'd take Liriano, I've seen enough of Humber, but you really undervalue Thornton. I think Hawk is the last Sox GM to make a trade with Minnesota, and it was extremely minor. Three factors: 1) In a real playoff race 2) Getting to work with Cooper and Nieves 3) Having two or three pitches OTOH, I don't think Liriano would like it because it would diminish his FA value as a starter. That said, I might ask him as a condition of the trade I was sticking him the pen but offer Gavin Floyd's deal ($9.5 million) for 2013. We know what we're going to get out of Gavin. I'd love to see if we could catch lightning in a bottle with Liriano. Out of Liriano, Danks and Floyd, I'd be the least surprised if Liriano won 15-20 games for the White Sox in 2013. I don't hate Thornton, I just hate how he's pitched since the 2010 All-Star game. He hasn't been worth the money we've paid him. And he's been horrible in almost every save situation. Whatever you want to say about Escobar last Thursday, he gave up hits to Crawford and Gonzalez, the two LHB'ers he's paid to get out with a one run lead.

So basically, they want Alexei Ramirez, Sale/Quintana, Tyler Flowers (back when he was a stud prospect) and Addison Reed. That's it?

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 02:03 PM) I was one of those who bought into the Crede connection as late as when he hit his ninth homer this year, but he's had such a long homerless drought that I think he'll just never have enough pop to make up for his pathetic average. You know things are bad for a player when Greg Hibbard notes your "pathetic average."

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 12:54 PM) What makes you think he is a "not very good fielder"? Because the reports I've read say the opposite. Everything I've read projects him to be an average or slightly below average major league middle infielder, especially range and arm-wise. Maybe he can practice and practice and practice like Ventura did and make it into an asset.

Jim Thome wasn't too bad, either. In all seriousness, we probably should give Gordon a chance with another organization after this season. If we made the playoffs and he turned into Bill Mazeroski, you obviously offer him arbitration for 2013.

I would seriously put Liriano in the bullpen and dump Matt Thornton. Liriano throwing all-out for just an inning or two would be devastating. He can get K's, he has the two pitches that Matty doesn't.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) I hope Sox let Peavy walk after this year, especially given the insane workload he's taking on this season. With Hamels signing the big extension, it increases Peavy's value this offseason even more. We were saying at the game yesterday...it's almost like you get the feeling the White Sox are trying to make up for lost time and get every last "drip" of pitching out of Peavy's right arm. They're really really pushing him hard, and it didn't make any sense yesterday with the heat....with the big lead....with the back-end of the bullpen needing all the "on the job training" that they can possibly get so they're prepared to fight through the stretch run in the pennant race. You don't get the feeling they're trying to conserve anything for next year. Maybe Jake's asking for that...to show every team out there how durable he is this season. No idea. But I wouldn't have pushed Sale and Peavy as much as Ventura has so far in 2012.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:36 PM) Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS #marlins looking for "teixeira-like'' package for johnson, wont trade reyes, buehrle. #fish #firesale http://cbsprt.co/PNprjV Hence, not really a firesale unless one of those 3 goes. Marty might want to trade Viciedo and put Carlos Lee in LF.

Sanchez needs to develop another positive tool. He doesn't have much power and he's not a very good fielder and he's not super fast. That means he has to hit 300+ and take a ton of walks to compensate for all of his other weaknesses.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) Where's our Liriano? Sale/Quintana/Danks, lol.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:37 PM) Well, we all know how awesome Peavy is in postseason/tiebreak games. It's unlikely that the Sox would be in a position to shuffle their rotation around to line up the starter they want for that one game anyways. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather reward Quintana. That guy has ice in his veins, nothing gets to him. The only reason I said that about Peavy is because any thought of him coming back would be wiped out if we skipped over him for Greinke. Jake still thinks he's the Cy Young pitcher, not the current (very good) version of Jake Peavy. And in no way do I think paying Jake Peavy anything above $15 million makes any sense. And he's going to get better offers than $11 million and one year...figuring in the buyout cost.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:32 PM) We heard he'd be average at best at 3B, but he was pretty good after a few weeks. We heard he'd be decent at 2B, he's GG calibur. His arm is strong enough to play SS and he has some nice range. I don't know why anyone would say he'd just be average, at least defensively. And he hasn't struggled for 3+ years. He was pretty awesome the second half of 2010 before he broke his hand. Ramirez is good for 3 or 4 months of the season. It would be hard to let him go, but, even if Beckham doesn't hit next April and most of May, he'll still be even with Ramirez's production up to that point. I don't think its in the cards, but it would be a consideration. I just don't see him having nearly the range or arm or athleticism as Alexei does at SS. He has an above average arm for 2B, but it would get exposed on balls deep in the hole and balls up the middle where he has to throw against his body. More importantly, it would be a huge risk because the likelihood of him ever rediscovering his 2009 stroke with the White Sox just isn't very high. After all this time, looking at how his swing looks now, is there any reason to believe he'll magically figure it all out? He's worked with Walker AND Manto now. Nothing seems to be working. The best thing for him would be a change of scenery. There were just too many expectations based on his rookie season, and he never has been able to live up to them. Whether he ends up like Angel Berroa or has a long and productive career is up to him, but I would be shocked if it happened in Chicago.

QUOTE (Frank_Thomas35 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:24 PM) I agree we can't promise 9-1 10-0 but even if he wins six against the likes of Det or Cle, that's a difference maker and an impact move. Really how many wins is Gordon or Floyd going to bring us? And the chemistry thing is overrated, they are professionals and when they step into the clubhouse and on the field it's about one thing baseball and winning. That has been stated over and over again this year by players. We have a group of guys that want to win and want a ring. They will understand this move and IMO be happy about it. Gordo is great same with Gav but check the egos at the door.you can still be buds, but if it makes us WS Champs I don't think anyone in that dugout will be upset. But you're going to use Sale in that wildcard game, arguably. It wouldn't be Greinke. And good luck telling Peavy he's not starting after being on the team for 3+ years if for some reason Sale isn't still pitching at that point in the season. I just think we have a big mountain to climb to overcome the Tigers...maybe it can be done. But, as someone mentioned before, we're not 4-6 games in first. We're tied, and will probably be 1/2 game back going into a tough Rangers series on the road after we wiped them out in Chicago last time. They're going to be ready for us. That's just too iffy...not only that, you've got the A's, Orioles, Angels, Rays...it's not going to be easy to get that 2nd wild card. Certainly not a sure thing by any means.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:25 PM) In the "best case" that we resign Greinke, we've still traded minimum salary big contributors to pay a pitcher $20M+ for longer than we'd probably want to. This is my biggest gripe here. I'd rather pay Peavy 20 per for 2 years than Greinke for 6. And he's already turned down that money. So it's going to be $22.5-25 million for the pitching version of Josh Hamilton. No thanks. If the Danks deal never went down, then maybe. But that's just too much risk on two pitchers. Those kinds of contracts are almost always disappointing in the long-term. Can we think of any $100+ million pitching contracts where the team throwing that money around has been satisfied?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:23 PM) I wonder if the Sox would be willing to trade Ramirez. Milwaukee wants a SS, and eventually move Beckham to SS. Then you give up anything positive about having Beckham on the team. He would be just an average ML SS. And his bat, as it's trending the last 3 years, would be below average. Unless you go with the magical formula...move Gordon to SS or hit him 2nd or never make him bunt again and he'll morph into an All-Star player after struggling for 3+ years.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 01:18 PM) I would HATE to lose both of those. And if the Sox had to give one of those guys up, I don't know how one could argue keeping Reed over Viciedo. Between the two, Viciedo has a greater impact on the future than Reed does. There's no way in hell he's going to trade BOTH Reed and Viciedo. Makes zero sense. It means you have a 91-92 MPH throwing Brett Myers as your closer at $10 million next year. That's dumb, because it precludes the chances of keeping Peavy, AJ, Floyd or Youkilis. If you're going to argue you should trade Viciedo, you might as well be trading DeAza or Ramirez. None of those moves make any sense for this team, this year.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 11:49 AM) Cheap LF'ers and closers are a dime a dozen for high revenue teams. Cheap averageish starting pitching is not. First of all, you better be guaranteeing a 9-1 or 10-0 record for Greinke, and you can't do that. At worst, Quintana or Floyd would probably be 5-5. If it's not Quintana, it's going to be Floyd and Reed/Jones and another prospect. If it's so easy to find a closer, we wouldn't have blown 15 saves and gone through Santiago, Thornton, Sale and Viciedo trying to do that. Just think about it...if we had a normal save conversion rate, then there wouldn't be as much of a need to trade for Greinke because we'd be anywhere 12-16 games over .500 right now. Apparently, those games that Greinke throws shutouts or K's 13 are more valuable in the standings than games that aren't blown by the back end of the bullpen. That's not reality. You can argue that those late collapses have been even more damaging to the team psyche than games where Humber, Axelrod, Hernandez or Stults gets hit around.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 10:32 AM) His start against the Yankees really won me over. The way he was able to recover from early damage and keep it close enough for the offense and get the win is exactly the type of thing you see from a veteran. With his terrific command, multiple pitches, ability to get the groundball DP when he needs it, the cutter in on the hands again and again and again... I'm convinced that anyone who isn't confident in this kid's future just isn't watching. He has the ability plus all the intangibles to go with it. He has a good move to first, can field his position, works quicks, throws strike 1 - this is the Columbian Mark Buehrle. He definitely can't field his position well yet...that's one of his weaknesses. When he gets behind in the count, he doesn't have the kind of stuff to consistently get swings and misses. That said, he's usually ahead in the count...I do have some concern about how repeatable is his command/control this season, in terms of extrapolating into the future. He's gotten beaten recently on balls that he couldn't get inside enough and that didn't have quite enough "ooomph" behind them. But yeah, it would be hard to give up 5 years of a much cheaper Quintana for Greinke's 10-12 starts. I definitely wouldn't want to pay him $22.5-25 million per year for 5 years or whatever it ends up being.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 11:29 AM) Except those dudes aren't even close to the majors yet. Keep an eye on Micah Johnson, too.