caulfield12

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 07:35 PM) So to all the doubters on here....Hawk just said this team is choking. Are they choking, or just really bad? There's no mistake Carrasco was let go by the Royals, had to pitch in Japan and was in AAA. We couldn't go to Linebrink and Dotel that early...although I'm sure Ozzie will second-guess that one.

Now the boos come I am sure. And they are wholly deserved.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 06:54 PM) This inning is so huge for Danks. I'd say the odds are 85% the Indians score. LOL.

Maybe Gordon's ready to be a player. 4-0 KC over Minnesota. L/L match-up works out for Hillman, who's done a great job bringing this team back from the dead to end the year on a high note.

Royals playing "Twins ball" so far... 3-0, at least they're making it interesting. Saturday will be the story of Glen Perkins and Javier Vazquez.

Indians 1 White Sox 1 Cabrera -1

I can't believe I"m saying this, but I would much rather listen to a presidential debate than the White Sox continuing/ongoing debacle/fiasco. This team really is an embarassment. If they're going to lose, they might as well get blown out and roasted by the fans. No more games like the last two nights in Minny.

DeJesus is out of the line-up for the Royals tonight.

I'm going to be interested to see how Anderson responds. So many people here have been clamoring for him, I think there's a very silent majority waiting to say "I told you so" when he goes 0 for 4, strikes out twice and leaves 5 RISP. Hopefully that won't be the case...but Anderson, if Lee goes Sunday, would have two starts in three games to make a final, lasting impression over the offseason. Or he could simply disappear like Wise. Same with Swisher.

QUOTE (joejoedairy @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 05:35 PM) ba in center thats a niiiiiiiice (in weird dj voice) Paciorek is actually the one that came up with that....

Dye didn't call the fans ignorant. The team is tight, just like in 2005...Mariotti, every single day that September, was cheering and pulling for a choke and accusing the team of quitting/dying. What do you expect Dye to say? "Sure, despite fighting for 145 days in first place, we just decided it wasn't worth the extra effort to play for one more week and extend ourselves into the playoffs. We know the Rays are a better team, and they play in a dome, so we basically decided after a team meeting that the Twins had a better chance of representing our division. Plus, the Twins just match up better with the Rays. F*** it, I'm going back to California with my money and wife and family. No matter what happens, I'll always have a ton of money and my future guaranteed, how many of those blue-collar Sox fans can say the same thing in this economy? Screw them!!!" We are reading too much into comments now with all this stuff coming out about OC, Ozzie and Swisher. He's a smart (and nice) guy, and has always been a fan favorite. This is starting to remind me of all the dissection that went on whenever Garland opened his mouth...or Garcia. Now it's Javier's turn to be toasted, and he deserves a lot of the flames he's receiving. But not Dye.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 04:39 PM) I don't fault Cabrera at all. I too wonder where has our "so-called" leader gone in Paul Konerko? I've thought he was overrated for awhile. Well before 2005, but fans seem to love him. He really does not lead or say anything. Just because he's a nice guy does not make him a leader. I rather have more guys like Cabrera who seem to at least give a damn instead of guys like Dye who are calling fans ignorant. Mike Sweeney is another good example. They tried to force him to be the captain and the face of the Royals, but he always resisted. Of course, he was great with the fans, always signed autographs...but Muser once said, sometimes we need LEADERS. "Chewing on cookies and eating milk and praying is not going to get it done," former Royals manager Tony Muser said. "I'd like them to go out and pound tequila … " Part of this was due to Sweeney's overt Christianity, but the essence was that being a nice guy alone and even being loved by the fans wasn't enough. Of course, the examples of Everett and Rowand will always be cited here, and juxtaposed with "nice guys" like Jermaine, Thome, Konerko...but for whatever reason, and maybe you can attribute it to AJ's attitude as well...we just don't have that killer instinct anymore, Ozzie is losing ground year by year in the clubhouse with these same players. They really need to start over again with some fresh blood and revitalize with even more youth, without tremendously overpaying. And that's hard to due, because we don't have many prospects left to trade and many spare parts on our major league roster that can be taken out. It's going to be one of those head-scratching, Pods/Carlos Lee "addition by subtraction" moves I think. We can part ways with Cabrera and Vazquez, but it will take a bigger cut to really change the overall mentality of this team/organization.

QUOTE (MO2005 @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 03:48 PM) I don't understand it either...2005 we had this grinder, get to your head type of approach like the Twins do..Podsednik leads off with a walk or single..Iguchi moves him over...Then Dye or Rowand would get him in...We had great execution in 2005 because we got to the pitcher's head and had good pitches to hit..Remember in 2005 we had like that unbelievable start with scoring first and winning remember? Guillen was in his 2nd year and I'm not saying he is not doing a good job now, but he has become just an a**hole..His Mike North Show vent, the Jay Mariotti thing, the Sean Tracey meltdown, etc. etc. I know it was funny and entertaining, but I remember in 2006 after that Mariotti thing was when the Whitesox fell apart. They were like 30 over .500, then tumbled to the finish line. In my opinion going out on a limb, we have to get rid of Guillen (which won't happen), trade Konerko, Fields (we don't need another guy in the lineup who will strikeout 150 a year), let Griffey walk, and trade Vazquez. The Sox have like the fifth largest payroll so instead of paying these old guys, pay for some guys who are feared! Get a manager in here that is hardnosed, but like Gardenhire, is respected. I don't think a lot of players respect him the way other managers like Francona, Torre, LaRussa, etc are respected. Trade Konerko and Fields for Figgins, then sign him to a deal to lead off and play 3rd. Sign Hudson or someone with some patience at the plate to play 2nd. Move Ramirez to SS. In center field I go with BA because of his great defense. Then give everything we got to spend this summer on CC Sabathia (longshot)...A guy who goes out every fifth day and we know can win us a game like yesterday. The bullpen was good the first half because our starters were also pitching well, then they imploded because our starters gave up runs and the pressure was put on them! Lineup next year looks like this: Figgins Hudson Quentin Dye Thome Swisher Pierzynski Anderson Ramirez This kind of has the same taste as 05 but probably a more finesse team. The only big strikeout guys are dye, thome, anderson...3 versus the 6-7 we have now in the lineup... Speed at the bottom...then keep Owens, Wise..Getz..utility for speed..this team would be a 95 win team..giving the confidence to the pitching knowing we can manufacture runs! It wasn't the run-in with Mariotti, we actually played remarkably well for a couple of weeks after that incident, and have usually done the same thing when the focus has been directly on Ozzie (and not on the clubhouse, like it is now...Swisher, OC). The 2006 team just couldn't sustain that offense the entire season, Jenks was hurt and ineffective the final two months and the pitching started to wear down or disintegrate (with the notable exception of Garcia's last two starts when we were essentially out of it). I don't think the Angels have any desire to acquire Josh Fields (they already have Brandon Wood and plenty of infielders), and there's a good chance they keep their new Rotisserie league star Texiera. Hudson..well, he would be good, but at what cost? Can we afford to take on yet another salary when we're already fifth in the majors and haven't had much to show for it, compared to 2005 when we were in the middle of the pack? I do think either Swisher or Konerko needs to go and we need a legitimate centerfielder. And speaking of "small ball," if Brian Anderson could do the same thing as Tadahito Iguchi, I'd say GREAT, sign me up. However, he's closer to Uribe. Sure, he'll give you 15-20 homers, but he's not a smart baseball player....he's an athlete trying to play baseball, just like Fields and Borchard. Ramirez is a baseball player who happens to be athletic (like Roberto Alomar in his prime, although that's just an example, too high a bar for Alexei). We need more of those type of players...even if they are aging, like Iguchi, we need players that know how to play the game right, that don't need to be coached or motivated or learn fundamentals. Once they arrive at the big league level, they pretty much are the player they are going to be.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 04:20 PM) Things are getting very ugly between Ozzie and OC. I really, really hope this s*** doesn't prevent us from offering him arbitration. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...-ssep26.article It should make them MORE likely to offer it, and even less likely that he would accept it. His play of late has pushed up his BA, RBI's, OBP, OPS to respectable overall season numbers, very similar to seasons past. KW is a smart enough guy not to let emotions get in the way of sound baseball decisions (except drafting his son and Oney Guillen, I guess). At least, he was smart enough to part ways with players like Garcia and McCarthy instead of holding onto them longer. I don't think any negative/spiteful sentiment will come into their decision to offer or not offer. Now what KW does with Brian Anderson, and whether he doesn't trade him (which would be the best thing for Brian's career and peace of mind), that will be an interesting thing to watch. Both Fields and Anderson are worth more to the Sox than they are to other teams, unfortunately. The same thing can be said of Dye and Thome too, because we can't field a team like the Twins and win in our ballpark without power hitters in the 2-6 spots.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 04:19 PM) Though with Cabrera and Wise (up until the last coupple of nights) hitting well at the top of the order, it sure would have been nice to have someone that didn't suck in the 3 hole. Has anything come out at all about Dye and off-field problems, or an injury? DJ made a comment (surreptitious/circumspect) about some type of issue, and that it was bothering or lingering with JD. The only thing I can compare it to is Jose over the last couple of seasons when things were going down behind the scenes with his divorce and he was just pitching like his pre-acquisition form...totally different player you didn't even recognize.

I guess you create your own luck...for whatever reasons, the really good teams find a way to have the breaks go their way. While the Gomez blown call at 2B and the ball that dropped an inch and a half off the line yesterday will be cited as reasons for our losses, sometimes things just go your way. Call it the "baseball gods." (Of course, the baseball gods are very cruel, and punish teams like the A's, Twins and Braves over and over again...to the point where some of their fans dread making the playoffs for fear they will be embarassed or "one and done" yet again). Almost everything that could go wrong has for the White Sox (playing in the dome instead of US Cellular in the final series, Quentin's injury, the calls in that series, the decision to go with 3 day's rest instead of sticking to the regular rotation, etc.) has gone wrong. Decision-making from the dugout and from the catcher. Execution. Just like all the stars lined up behind the Sox three years ago. Yes, the White Sox theoretically could have gotten hot like the Cardinals a couple of seasons ago, but there really haven't been any reasons to believe that was possible based on our play the last two months. There was another stat quoted about our abysmal winning percentage against winning teams on the road, in general on the road, on the road in domed stadiums... I think I was reading another thread where someone said (and OC made this point, too) that the 2005 team just went out and expected to win games, and you knew many were over before they started. This year, we've instead found new and interesting ways to lose them. We don't have any one reliable aspect of our team that shows up on a day-to-day basis. We have a lot of talent, but a lack of collective belief in ourselves as a team. The fans sense this, I'm sure the players are aware of it, too. The 2005 team gets those breaks we were handed in the 6 run inning yesterday, they put the game out or reach...and the Twins have no belief with the Politte, Cotts, Jenks pen that a comeback is possible. Yesterday, we're all thinking of the various permutations that will prevent us from using any other reliever but Thornton and Jenks. Yesterday was telling, not even Linebrink and Dotel have Guillen's confidence right now. While it might have been better for selling season tickets in 2009, missing the playoffs aren't a disaster, although it would have made for good stories the first couple of days next week about the Cubs and Sox meeting in the WS. From a rooting standpoint, at least I can still pull for the Rays (or Twins) and against any team playing the Cubs. I think another big difference is that Contreras was just SO dominant. We forget about the roll he was on, and how well McCarthy pitched down the stretch. We weren't getting blown out down the stretch when we were collapsing, most of the games were quite close. Even then, we had games started by McCarthy and Jose that you felt VERY GOOD about winning, before the game even started. This year, despite the seemingly favorable match-ups, almost nothing has gone like predicted. In fact, the opposite has usually transpired. It has been an interesting and fun season to follow, but thoughts of "why do I follow White Sox baseball?" (or any sport in general, instead of doing more volunteer work, lol) are receding. Maybe I'll just change my mind. We were so close to having the playoffs you could feel it slipping away yesterday, all game long. As fathom said, it will be quite interesting to observe how the fans, team and coaches respond, as well as KW, the broadcasters will react/feel/hope or despair. Today feels a little like the day it would have felt like had we lost the Crede/Riske walk-off shot game. At this point, I'm not expecting the playoffs, just hoping against logical hope...but not surprised by any result.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 10:16 AM) I'm sure he's referring to Danks. Sounded more like a reference to Bobby Jenks.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 10:13 AM) I heard Lee will pitch if the game means anything. I wonder if Greinke will do the same?...sounds like that's a much more unlikely scenario at this point.

The key is tonight. If we can hold serve SOMEHOW, then the pressure really is on Perkins tomorrow, who's been ever WORSE than Blackburn recently, if that's possible. Of course, he'll throw a shut-out and Meche will get knocked out in the 3rd. Then again, with Vazquez again on 3 day's rest, I guess all bets are off. And Liriano has been so tough for much of the second half, and he's at home, AND...well, there's always hope I guess. At least in Nicholas Sparks novels. If he stumbles yet again, I think KW will have to move him...and it looks like Swisher now, too. Not a good problem, dealing from a position of weakness instead of strength.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 09:50 AM) He's had a decent season, but he'll be what 37 next season. Depends on the O's asking price I guess. Also IIRC, he's not exactly the world's greatest fielde at 3rd base. Hence why I'd prefer Beltre instead. I'd give up Fields for him in a deal. After Olivo/Morse/Reed for Garcia and Thornton for Borchard, we would have to give up Fields, Poreda and Allen for Beltre, lol.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 09:44 AM) BTW, my prediction for White Sox 3rd baseman next year is Melvin Mora. I'd like a Roberts/Mora trade as much as the next guy, but for who? The only thing with Mora, I just don't like this idea of taking on contracts of players in their 30's anymore...at least Swisher, albeit a failure to this point, is close to in his prime. Maybe he's just not that good, I don't know. The results with Cabrera have been mixed. For whatever reason, he's gotten on Ozzie's bad side and it's hard to get back in his good graces. Maybe it's because O-Cab thinks of himself as the "on field" manager and there's a fight for control or authority or respect between the two. Also, I know Cabrer and Renteria (both Colombians) had a falling out. I wonder if maybe there's also an issue we don't know about...something that has happened besides the call to the booth, the leaving the clubhouse early, etc. I know a lot of Venezuelans and Colombians don't get along, from my one year living down there.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Sep 26, 2008 -> 07:58 AM) ding ding ding That begins and ends all discussion about September. In fact it so perfectly sums up this moment, I just don't want to open any other thread. But couldn't we make the same argument, statistically, about our record since July 21/22nd, when Linebrink left his 8th inning set-up role?

Williams wondered how many days the Sox had spent in first place since 2002. He said he couldn't believe they had been there so often and won only the one title, in 2005. He almost looked like he wanted to cry. Imagine how he felt after Carlos Gomez and the Twins kept fighting back and the Minnesota bullpen—the one that had been 4-14 since Aug. 4—handcuffed Chicago hitters. The Twins eventually tied the score in the eighth inning and won 7-6 in the 10th on Alexi Casilla's two-out single off an exhausted Bobby Jenks. Minnesota had completed a sweep that was imperative, moving into first place by a half-game over the stunned Sox. They have led the Central for 145 days this season and 464 since the start of 2002—almost exactly 40 percent of the time—but the Twins are the team that stands up at the end. from chicagosports.com (Phil Rogers) 1) Fact, in Williams' time, he has won one AL Central Division title (1/8=12.5) 2) Fact, in Williams' time, the Twins have won 5 out of 7 (71.4%) I would like for these numbers not to be true after Monday, but the odds are exceedingly in the Twins' favor. 3) Fact, the White Sox are 5-17 in games played in domed stadiums this year. There are about 500 threads here, so why not another one? At least the keyboards are fired up! I kept going back and forth and thinking about how painful this was, comparing it to 2000 or 1983 or 1993. It really reminded me of the game the Twins won when Denny Hocking hit a walkoff homer against Foulke for some reason, that game sticks out in my mind. I went back and forth between anger and sadness, wishing that Guillen would implode or resign, and definitely that Walker would be asked for his walking papers. Bainsey, too. Just for once, I wanted us to be able to say that we beat the Twins in a division race where both teams were pretty equally matched. It doesn't matter if the Twins go down 3 and out to the D-Rays (which would be likely if they can't use Liriano and Slowey is also out)...and we can go back to the old 2005 >>> five playoff appearances argument. I can't imagine Williams keeping his job if it weren't for 2005...after last season. He's done a good job, all things considered, to put the team in a position to compete, just like he did in 2003 and 2006. I would gladly go through three seasons of below .500 baseball if I knew at the end of it we would finally have a great team again. The problem with KW's philosophy is it's not unlike that of the Kansas City Chiefs (putting together competitive teams season after season, just not quite good enough to get to the playoffs or do damage there)...but when the wheels come off, they really come off!!! I can't even say that I was shocked or suprised at the final result. Everyone knows that Jenks isn't the same pitcher he was in 2005...although the statistics, overall, are good, he's just not the same intimidating pitcher, which is why I really think it makes some sense to shop both Jenks and Thornton NOW and see what might be available from other clubs. Whether it would have been better to use Linebrink or Dotel, I doubt it. A walk off homer from either of those guys would have sent out threads of outrage about not using our best pitcher in the most crucial innings of the season. Ozzie believed in Dye, Griffey and Thome to the end, and here we are. Realistically, it comes down to pitching, and the Twins' pitching was just better (certainly the bullpens) and we fell into our normal trap of not adding on runs and building the lead. Dwayne Wise's at-bat (not bringing home Uribe) and then Griffey batting against a LHP with runners on 2nd and 3rd, just no excuse for that. Wise should have been benched after Game 2. Now we have yet another issue with Swisher's "bruised feelings" about riding the bench in the most important series of the season. These games, once again, exposed all of our flaws for the world to see. A lack of clutch hitting, station to station baseball, almost never putting pressure on the opposing team on the basepaths (of course, it would be nice to have a catcher who could throw and pitchers who could hold runners, too), just the lack of creativity and imagination and adjustments from most of our hitters... Most of us agree we are happy about Quentin (now he's a villain again, for knocking himself out of the line-up), Ramirez, Danks and Floyd. And that's about it (I guess you can add Buehrle!). Those five players symbolize what this team could be...but they're only 20% of the roster, and ultimately the Twins' team won over the White Sox individual statistics once again. So I hope KW will cry and cry, that might finally convince him to do something about changing the make-up of this roster, just as he did before the 2005 season.

I think it's Linebrink or Thornton. You can't risk Dotel at this point.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 25, 2008 -> 07:58 PM) Let's assume Floyd gets to about 110 after 6...who pitches the 7th might be Ozzie's most important decision of the year It will be Thornton for Mauer/Morneau/Kubel, unless we get some more runs or Gavin just tears through the next four batters. Then you'll see Jenks come on in the 8th I think, possibly Linebrink for one hitter or two, but VERY VERY short rope for Scott.