Paint it Black

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 27, 2010 -> 06:50 AM) But that doesn't address the fact that these rankings do not take into account whether or not recent draft picks have actually contributed to the mlb club, which, impliedly, is the entire point of the rankings in the first place. If you're going to make draw an inference that the strength of your farm system is a measure of your drafting ability or your ability to impact your mlb club then you must account for recent draft picks that have contributed to the mlb club ahead of schedule. My point is that big deal, you drafted no doubter of a middle infielder out of college and "developed him" and a college senior who is destined to be a good pen arm and most likely nothing more. That isn't much to brag about recently. Even if you want to use your method, my point being, the White Sox still rank pretty low. Plus, how do you define "ahead of schedule?" and measure such thing? The best way to measure the contributions of ones farm team is world series flags, rings, and parades. Period.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:13 PM) But see, it doesn't hurt that Sale and Beckham are already producing in the Big Leagues! That is the entire point of the draft! I could give a s*** about this stuff. Why not just have a ranking of draft picks contributions to the MLB club? That seems far more relevant to me. Because it still wouldn't matter. It's not like the White Sox has some visionary idea with Sale people. Plus Beckham has been out of the minors for 2 drafts, so it's really time to stop using that excuse. Although rankings don't mean anything, it matters that the White Sox have almost nothing for a farm system. No trade bait in prospects, no quality players who could play in a pinch/injury, and no future. This team doesn't spend in the draft, and it will eventually catch up to them.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Dec 21, 2010 -> 07:25 AM) What the hell? You guys act like we're not going to win the AL Central this year. WE'RE ALL IN. Didn't you get the memo?? Seriously though... I'd be on board with trading him if we could get a Greinke-like haul like the Royals did, but I really don't anticipate the Sox being far enough out of it to start dumping players... not for the next couple of years. I'd be pissed if I was a Royals fan right now. They got no impact talent. Only guys who might be okay every day players for a Cy Young talent pitcher who the Royals didn't have to trade right now.

None of this is ground breaking stuff, nor is it really outside the box, but whatever. Comparing rosters and saying which guys are "homegrown" is kind of stupid. I mean for years the Red Sox have had great young talent and trade that talent for established major league talent. Yeah, it cost them Hanley Ramirez, but it also was a big reason why the won a championship. Nor is it surprising to anyone that Perez, KRod, Castillo, and Bay were all awful contracts when the Mets signed those players. But I would strongly disagree that the Mets were not ready to contend. I mean I didn't think they would, but the way they were built, they were in that "win now" window.

You trade him only if in the next two years the White Sox are not a contender. The window is now.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:42 AM) It'd be like Swisher trade volume 2. Except this time, the player they get sucks and we're not going to be the losers of the deal. Implying we got good players the first time around.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:35 AM) Gardener was worth more than Floyd last season. A full win more (fangraphs or B-R.com). This is somewhat of the original point I was trying to bring up. Any trade of our pitchers for other major league ready talent is likely to end up as a wash since we are in 'win now' mode and on a budget. Just reshuffling wins, borrowed from the starting rotation. Last season. But I'd still take Floyd over the life of his career (given position, likeliness to repeat success etc) (and again, I have never ever been a huge Floyd fan). I'm sorry if I came off as an asshole. It's more me thinking about how it's 12:30 am, the Cliff Lee signing intrigues me, yet I have to wake up at 6am so I be at work at 8 am. And I keep drinking beer after beer. Thanks 3E8 for the stimulating disucssion. I don't get to do this much in real life, thus, I get pretty passionate when I get the chance.

QUOTE (hitlesswonder @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:33 AM) A high-OBP guy with good D that plays everyday will generate more wins than a starter of Floyd's caliber. The question is simply whether you think Gardner will be as good or better than he was last season. For the Yankees, I guess the question also involves how desperate they are for pitching and if they think they could fill Gardner's spot through other means. In any case, I don't think the Yankees would do the deal. In any case I think the Sox will be looking to trade a starting pitcher or position player for middle relief... True, assuming you have a league average pitching to plug in Floyd's spot (which you don't). I just don't see the value/point in having White Juan Pierre.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:30 AM) If you got the Yanks to take on Teahen's contract you could free up enough to go after someone like Pavano (potentially). Teahen instantly becomes the Yankee's like 29th man. He's untradeable.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:26 AM) So you have two outfielders with little power and one with good power. What's wrong with that? A 3-4-5 of Rios, Dunn, and Konerko will provide more than enough power. Add in Alexei's above average power for a SS and Beckham's decent power for a 2B and you're really not lacking much pop. Whatever power you lose from Quentin should be made up with the defense Gardner provides and then some. Because your assuming Konerko isn't due for a drop off in offensive production. Plus you kinda forget the White Sox play 81 games in a hitters park where power really, really matters. Oh and you don't play most of your games in the NL where you can get away with an awful outfield. Further, you assume that Pierre can sustain an OBP that is highly tied to his batting average.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:19 AM) Fine, call Gardner a 4-win OF. He's still making the league minimum (which in turn means he's club controlled longer) and younger than Floyd while being of equal production. And that was just in his first full season at the major league level. It doesn't make sense for the Yankees to let him go for Floyd. Wait. So slightly above average OF's are as valuable as established 3rd starters? I don't mean to be an ass, but in what baseball universe is this true? Again, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me who starts in Floyd's sport and gives HALF the value that Floyd is worth.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:12 AM) Trade Floyd for him, put him in center and move Rios to right. You'll have one of the best defensive outfields in all of baseball. Quentin ends up getting traded, for who? I don't know, that's not my job. But you'll save money in this trade and you can probably grab a fifth starter from somewhere or trade Quentin for a starter. Man, Rios is also a better center fielder. There's no doubt in my mind about that. I'm okay with trading Quentin, but when you have basically 2 corner OF's (again I'm objecting to Rios moving from CF; instead play Gardner and Pierre in the corners) who have no power. Enjoy that. Or s*** even if you want to move Rios to RF you still have two OF spots with below average power without any different power sources coming from somewhere else.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:12 AM) The guy doesn't have much power There's the answer to your question. I just don't believe a sold 3 is worth a hitter without any power who is a slappy OBP guy (were talking about a guy who projected a bench guy pretty much his whole minor league career).

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 14, 2010 -> 12:04 AM) Pierre's walk rate is about half of Gardner's. I understand this. I'm just not a believer in one year. I saw him as a 4th OF before 2010 and I still do.

Again, someone explain to me who is starting in place of Floyd? Seriously I can't argue that no starter has been more fluky on this team, but if you do trade him there is not anything in the system people.

QUOTE (Pale Sox @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 11:57 PM) Gardner's OBP is not at all overly reliant on his batting average. He's always had a high BB% as a pro. But don't we already have a "try hard grindy speedy (add bad baseball verb here) basically 4th OF guy starting, named Juan Pierre?

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 11:55 PM) He's a completely different pitcher than he was before 2008. Arguably the best in baseball since that time. With nearly 700 IP, we may be able to call the comeback legit at this point. And since Lee is a finesse pitcher, he skills should be more resilient to age than guys who rely on high velocity for success. Couldn't disagree more. A command pitcher in his early 30's. When he doesn't have the command it's pretty much below average (see World Series Game 1). As Kevin Goldstein of BP put it the other day "The chances of Lee being the pitcher he's been over the last few seasons two years from now are slim, four years from now, tiny, and six years from now? Unfathomable." (obviously written before tonight, but replace "six" with "five" and it's still true.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 11:53 PM) Okay. So who is the 4th starter? Who is the 5th starter until Peavy is back in July? All of this assumes you don't think Gardner didn't have a fluky year last year. And for the record, I'm all for trading Floyd. Just not for speedy fast guys who are reliant on batting average who who can be found in almost every organization.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 11:51 PM) Brett Gardner? I'd say Floyd is worth Gardner. Okay. So who is the 4th starter? Who is the 5th starter until Peavy is back in July? All of this assumes you don't think Gardner didn't have a fluky year last year.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 11:33 PM) The 4 playoffs teams from the AL in 2010 have just had miserable offseasons so far. I would argue the Yankees and Rangers win this deal. Name me a pitcher who was worth a 5 year deal in his early 30's? Lee is exactly what the Rangers don't need for their team (i.ie a big contract that hinders them from making a worth wile deal when they're really close).

It's funny. In 4 years, the Phillies will have the two worst contracts in baseball on one team (Lee and Howard). If you really think a pitcher three years removed from pitching himself back into the big leagues will be worth the money in five years, well then I have ice to sell you in Alaska.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 11:43 PM) If I am Kenny, I am seeing what the offers are for Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, and Jackson are right now Besides Danks, they're not overwhelming.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 4, 2010 -> 04:40 PM) I dont know the answer to your question, but I do know that the Upper Deck sucks. All Upper Decks do, not just USCF. IMO the environment is much weaker, so much more removed from sitting the lower bowl. If someone offered me UD seats or a nice HD flat screen and comfy couch I prefer the latter. After I stopped going on JCC day camp field trips and 12 year old birthday parties the idea of sitting in the UD at this point (by choice) just seems awful. If you can get outfield seats over Upper Deck seats. False. Besides sitting right behind the White Sox dugout in what was Ozzie's last year as a player (bantered with the fans all game, I was like 9 and enjoyed it then) the UD has some of the best views in the park. The "environment" kind of sucks everywhere you sit. Either you get the people who don't pay attention at all or the baseball morons. I am also considering an UD all weekend season ticket plan for 2011.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 2, 2010 -> 07:03 PM) Pena's Line Drive rate, percent of pitches swung at outside the zone: 08: 18.0%, 20.8% 09: 16.8%, 23.5% 10: 14.5%, 26.6% He's not hitting the ball as hard anymore, and plate discipline is getting worse. Troublesome trend, that. I'd avoid, especially after we've secured left-handed power bat in Dunn. Yeah I knew about those numbers. I dunno I admit I'm a sucker for the LH stick that is basically a 3 true outcomes hitter. I just think that Pena might be able to be got on the cheap while all of Konerko's numbers were above his career averages.

the Tyler Flowers era is going to be like the Brian Anderson era....or the Josh Fields era...or the...