Paint it Black

QUOTE (Brian @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 06:28 AM) Good luck. Been looking for full time job for about a year now and nothing. Working 3 PT jobs now and hate it. I have a college degree and can't even get frequent interviews. Keep at it man. I was in your spot a few months ago. Just got lucky I guess.

Have: 2001 Ford Taurus. Got it from my mom. My dad maintained the thing great. 175,000 on it right now, not one complaint. Looking to get this summer: Mini Cooper. Can't decide whether to buy or lease though.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 02:57 PM) GMAB, Tex. I've been getting gang-raped because I didn't give this offseason a sparkling, shiny A plus. I'm sure you've seen this. Then you create this thread? Within reason, what the hell did you want them to do that they didn't do?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 10:14 PM) I agree that at first it seems like an easy no -- slick defense light-hitter. But then you look at the numbers and... doesn't he have the most hits of any SS in history or something? I feel like a plus-plus defender who happens to have the most hits in his position's history HAS to be in, right? Not really. I mean it's almost expected for someone who has played this long. Plus, did anybody EVER consider Omar Vizquel a top 5 player in the league...EVER? Actually I think he has only got 1 MVP vote his entire career. To me, that says a lot.

QUOTE (PlunketChris @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 12:28 PM) Being a first ballot Hall Of Famer is rare and seems reserved for those "perfect" players. Guys like Cal Ripken Jr., and Tony Gwynn were the obvious first ballot hall of famers of recent memory. They had sparkling personalities and truly represented the game during their time with no connection to any PED, drugs or cheating. I was a little surprised that a strange personality who played for nine different teams like Rickey Henderson got in on his first ballot in 2009, but his skill set was beyond what anyone had ever seen. Frank's numbers and dominance are staggering, he carried teams all throughout the 90's and into the 2000's. But he was never a media darling which could hold him back from getting that first ballot call. The 2014 ballot will also be the first for Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine who seem to be clearer "first ballot" personalities. 1999 is the only time that three players were voted in on their first ballot (George Brett, Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan) so it's not unprecedented, but also unlikely. 2014 will also be the second ballot for potential HOFers Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds if none get in on their first vote. If Clemens and Bonds get in, that opens the door for a lot of the steroid era guys (McGwire, Sosa, Palmero, etc.) to get in the way of Frank, who appears to have a cleaner record. 2015 is a little softer on the new additions to the ballot, with only Randy Johnson really being a shoe in. John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield and Pedro Martinez are really the only other realistic candidates who come up for vote in 2015. It wouldn't shock me if Frank had to wait until his second year to get in. I wouldn't be surprised to see him make it on the first ballot, but part of me expects him to have to wait a year or two. First, the Big Hurt is in first ballot without question. His numbers compare with the best hitters of all time. And I'v said it before and I'll say it again. The old dinosaurs voting love the made up bullcrap like "feared hitter" and who was more feared than Frank in the 90's? Back to back MVP's (just go look at his OBP and slugging in those years and cry because you wish he was still around). He hit 500 home runs. Tons of walks, homeruns, RBI's, and for his speed had a great batting average. Basically, if you think the Big Hurt will not make the HOF first ballot for reasons athough true (media, injuries) then can't you say the same about Griffey (missed tons of games due to not being able to stay healthy)? In no way am I arguing the point, but I'm just saying... Second, Gwynn might be one of the most overrated players of my generation. Still HOF worthy, but Tim Raines was better. Third, I don't think if Bonds or Clemens gets in it paves the way for Sosa and Palmero (I think McGwire should be in FWIW). I don't think Sosa was GREAT (not good, GREAT) for that long. Were talking about a guy who MAYBE for 3 years you could say top 5 player (and this is before defense was an emphasis). Palmero is along the same lines for me. Good, steady career. No high peaks, but someone who was never a top 5 player for a few years in row. Certinly he wasn't even the best first baseman of his era (I'll take the Big Hurt and Bagwell along with Thome.

Serious question and want to see where people stand: Omar Vizquel Y/N? For me it's an easy No.

I was thinking Teahen for Mike Trout. What does Soxtalk think?

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 07:35 PM) Has there ever been one legitimate link to Bagwell and PEDs? Other than the fact he was big and strong? I honestly don't remember. Not that I can recall. But have you seen what he looks like now? I remember watching a Cubs/Astros game when Bagwell was the hitting coach. He looked NOTHING like his playing days. It's like a Sosa thing to some voters. There hasn't been any substantial "proof" but some people really suspect it. Personally I really don't think Bagwell did nor do I care. It's weird though how those late 90's to early 2000's Astros teams are viewed nationally. Like I have talked to people who don't think Biggio should be in the HOF and it shocks me.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 04:38 PM) And Bagwell not getting in pretty much confirms that there's no way Frank is getting in on the first ballot. I know he's got the 500 HRs. But they'll definitely use the fact he was a DH for most of those against him. It's not the DH. It's the speculation that Bagwell used PED's. Frank was the best pure hitter of the 90's. And plus HOF voters like garbage terms like "feared" which Frank surely was. That being said I think Bagwell should be in the HOF. Personally I don't need the self righteousness of the voters concerning PED's.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 01:44 PM) I'm happy for Blylevin, but Morris was every bit his superior, IMO Why? I'm still waiting for ANYONE to make a case for Morris that doesn't involve intangibles.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 10:19 AM) lol. The Jackson/Hudson trade is even more despicable now. It is? I'll take the dude with unbelievable stuff with the upside over the 3rd starter any day.

And only about 14 weeks until the first "fire Greg Walker thread" will be made. Probably after the first Adam Dunn strike out or something.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 2, 2011 -> 11:28 AM) JR is not the majority owner of the sox. He owns very little of the team, I believe it is still under 15%. However, he is voted as Chairman of the board so he runs the team for the investors. He onws more of the Bulls b ut I'm not sure of the percentage. Again, he is the Chairman of the board of the Bulls which is why he runs the team. Each investor can do what he wants with the money, if it's approved by the board. Each of cannot just say "here is extra money go ahead and use it." It would need to be approved. Some investors may not agree to it based on individual politics within the investor group. I doubt it would happen but all decision need to go through the Board just like any other company. The groups for the two teams are separate and they cannot just move money from one to the other. They are different companies and one comapny cannot give another company money without board approval. I did some more digging and pretty much came to this conclusion on my own. BTW, Reinsdorf owns 63% of the Bulls per wiki.

I remember reading somewhere that Reinsdorf keeps the two clubs separate. Meaning, just because one is doing financially better than the other it doesn't mean he shifts money between the two. A quick Google search doesn't yield any proof though, so there's that.

QUOTE (daa84 @ Jan 1, 2011 -> 08:34 PM) hes type A, but we already dont have a first round pick so what the hell Because the upcoming draft is loaded. It would be nice to have a pick in the first 50.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 01:46 PM) I'd agree with this, he was good but not great last year, but he has all the tools to be great. Good throwing arm, good range, quick response, etc. Remember, he hasn't been in the minors that long either. Agreed on all points. I'm not trying to s*** on Morel. Considering third base has been a black hole for a few years now, Morel would be a wonderful welcome to this club.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 11:45 AM) Not a great glove? The glove and his defense is Morel's calling card and one of the few things to worry about in regard to his skill set. From Kevin Goldstein at BP: "Morel is a plus (plus-plus for some) defender with a line-drive bat who hit .322/.359/.480 at the upper levels of the system this year. With an aggressive approach and slightly below-average power, he doesn't have the secondary skills to be a star, but he should be dependable." When I said great I meant gold glove type third baseman, so a bad choice of words on my part. Some like is D, others don't. From what I saw in 2010 he was good, not great.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 01:23 AM) I'm not talking about draft and follow. Look at our picks the last 3 years. A much higher ratio of higher-risk "upside" guys than before. Before Mitchell, Brian Anderson was probably the last, in 2003. They have not used a first round pick on a high schooler since 2001 (Kris Honel).

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 11:44 PM) Would Morel qualify here? He was developed in the system and while I've always thought highly of him, many haven't. He might, depending on where he ends up after the spring. I think he ends up being a Joe Crede-light type guy. Not much power. Not a great glove, but just a solid regular. I'm willing to put him on a list of guys who the White Sox developed, although again, bragging about developing one major league average player isn't something to hang your hat on. QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 11:58 PM) I think we draft quite a few players using this philosophy... just not in the first round. Well all teams do as draft and follow guys. I'm talking about Mitchell type guys. Huge athletic tools. Raw talent. First round. Oh and please stop drafting relatives of current organization members. At least not in the first 10 rounds.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 07:31 PM) The why wasn't Beckham picked earlier? Why wasn't Sale? And in re: your argument about Sale not being a starter, you're claiming to have won the point because a scout said Sale won't start or because you agree with him? Don't you think maybe you should wait and see what actually occurs first? This is ridiculous and I am finished with it. Maybe we should wait and see what actually occurs with the first 7 picks, (Tim Beckham, Pedro Alvarez, Eric Hosmer, Brian Matusz, Buster Posey, Kyle Skipworth, and Yonder Alonso) before we praise the White Sox for their ability to develop polished college players. Besides T. Beckham and Skipworth, you think the White Sox wouldn't like to have the other 5 players over Beckham? I'm not saying Beckham is a bad player or that I don't like his game going forward. The seven clubs before the White Sox mostly picked guys who had higher ceilings (albeit more risk and development time). The White Sox love drafting polished college players. Fine, whatever. My whole argument stemmed from this idea that farm system rankings should take into account the players who are on the big club now when really the best way to measure how well a team develops players is how many damn titles they win, and if Beckham and Sale are your crowing achievements as to why the farm system should get more credit, then we really need to rethink some things. And I thought I made it clear why Sale wasn't picked earlier, because teams didn't think he would eventually start. My whole point was that you want to praise a team for developing a pen arm. 29 other teams can do so as well. Just once I want to see this team draft a player on upside and actually develop said player. Jared Mitchell is my only hope currently...

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 12:14 PM) No one is trying to argue that the White Sox developed these guys. But you're giving them no credit for spotting the first guys to make it to the big leagues in those two drafts? To rate a minor league system, or the White Sox ability to produce MLB ballplayers, which, last time I checked, ultimately is the entire purpose of a minor league system, and then to disregard Beckham and Sale is absolutely nonsensical. Like Scenario said, maybe had we drafted Lonnie Chisenhall in 08' instead of Beckham our system would be rated better. My ultimate point is that any team could have taken Beckham and Sale and got the exact same result. Seriously, these were not shockers as to how well these guys performed when the got to the bigs. So to say "Yeah well the system might suck but you have to give them credit for Beckham and Sale" is an awful argument because even the worst teams at developing players could have gotten the exact same results. In my opinion, said argument is pretty much butthurt White Sox fan mad that a prospect writer said the truth. The "Beckham and Sale" argument could be made for every team. Seriously, who is the worst team in baseball right now? The Royals? Well yeah but Billy Butler made the big leagues and is a doubles machine and Zach Greinke got them a slew of talent. See how easy it is to name two players an organization drafted and developed and then rank how "good" they are at developing and drafting. Oh and a few scouts I have spoken to or read don't believe Sale will ever start, or at least don't think he ever will be one. I tend to agree. So doesn't taking a college pitcher with your first round pick for him to just be a pen arm kind of shoot any "b...b...but Sale" argument to pieces? (For the record I do like Sale and the pick, just as a really, really, good 8th inning guy for a team that is trying to win now.)

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 10:18 PM) Beckam played a decent 2B last year. And decent is being kind. I still think he can get better. But he was hardly Roberto Alomar. Agreed on this point. I wasn't trying to make Beckham out to a top tier defender, rather he has been moved around a lot on the infield, and has done so with little head aches.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Dec 29, 2010 -> 09:22 PM) Well right now it's no contest. But if the White Sox had the number one pick in 2008, I'll tell you which Beckham they would have drafted, and it would not have been Gordon. You pointed out that Cora had no impact on Josh Fields' game. I'm here to point out that Cora has had a huge impact on Ramirez and Beckham. Ramirez used to be a butcher with the glove. The past year he has come into his own. If you want to rip Cora for failures you can't really prove he was at the root of, then you must also accept the successes. What did the White Sox do to develop Gordon Beckham? My point being, he was pretty much at that point. This was not a guy they took in the third round as a draft and follow. Everybody knew what he was, and this was pretty much common knowledge within the major draft publications. The only argument was to what his ceiling was. Ditto Chris Sale. He appeared in 11 games in the minor. 11. GAMES. Either the White Sox have the best ever system at developing guys ultra quickly, or he was ready when he was drafted. I'm not knocking the organization for recognizing a player like this, but when people want to give them credit for "developing" him I think it's pretty hyperbolic. And I'll say it again. Pretty much every team can name two guys that they recently drafted that are up with the big club. I think White Sox fans as a whole fall in love with prospects so much because for this club, they're so rare that they actually come up to the big leagues and are as good as advertised.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2010 -> 08:18 PM) Here's my way of asking that in reply...which no-doubter middle infielder named Beckham would you rather have from that draft, ours or the one who went #1? Well right now it's no contest. But if the White Sox had the number one pick in 2008, I'll tell you which Beckham they would have drafted, and it would not have been Gordon. QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 28, 2010 -> 09:05 PM) Now get back to me when you have a point. You pointed out that Cora had no impact on Josh Fields' game. I'm here to point out that Cora has had a huge impact on Ramirez and Beckham. Ramirez used to be a butcher with the glove. The past year he has come into his own. If you want to rip Cora for failures you can't really prove he was at the root of, then you must also accept the successes.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 27, 2010 -> 03:35 PM) I'm just saying we're not exactly dealing from a position of strength when other teams know we have nowhere to play him. And I don't buy this camp Cora crap. Josh Fields called and told me it's not really that impactful. Gordon Beckham and Alexei Ramirez would have called, but they had big league jobs to attend to.