chw42

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 01:18 PM) I think I am the only person who likes this deal for the Dbacks. To me at least, Joe Saunders is a pretty decent #3 pitcher, with #2 potential. I doubt he ever reaches the ace level of Haren, but the Dbacks also pick up 3 prospects, one of Skaggs who is a pretty legit prospect, and they shave a LOT of money off their payroll too. I think the Dbacks could have gotten more, since the reports said Haren would be very hard to get, but I still like this trade for the Dbacks. Saunders moving to the NL West will help him get back on his feet. Saunders has zero potential. He's 30 and has been a mediocre pitcher throughout his Major League career. 2008 was an anomaly, just look at 2009 and 2010 to find that out.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 12:43 PM) Right, but our two best offensive players were injured for most of the year in 2004, and I really think that's impossible to overlook. As for the "90 million plus payroll should get you more than 79 wins" comment, I agree with the literal obviously, but the spirit of it really is "not making the playoffs is disappointing with that payroll", because I sincerely doubt that 79 vs. 85 wins matters much to you in that scenario. Bear in mind that since the beginning of the 06 season just 18/47 teams with a 90 million+ payroll (38.3%) have made the playoffs, so it's not as if it's realistic to count on making the playoffs even half the time with a payroll in that class. We would have been in the division race with 85 wins last year, so it probably does matter. It's contextual. Usually, you should be better than a .500 team with a $95 million tab.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 12:14 PM) You just said given the talent, money and therein implied expectations, and then you cite two guys that had "career years"... If Frank and Mags are healthy for even most of the year, we probably win that division. I just don't know how you can put 2004 on Ozzie, but to each his own. Not saying they weren't talented, but they definitely had very good years that season. That 04 Sox team only scored 3 less runs than the 06 Sox team and Kenny made some very good moves to help the pitching staff at the deadline. They tried, they just didn't get there.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:57 AM) In 2004, when the team payroll was $65 million (15th of 30 teams in MLB), we lost Ordonez for 2/3rds of the season, and Frank Thomas only played 75 games. I'm sorry...but winning 83 games was a freaking miracle in retrospect. In 2006, winning 90 games put us short, but I'm not sure I'd consider it a categorical disappointment. In 2009, our payroll was 12th in MLB, fwiw. You're supposed to win more than 79 games with a $90 something million payroll. That 04 team still had an incredible offense without Maggs and Frank. Rowand had a near career year, as did Uribe. Along with Freddy in that pitching staff, they should have been better than an 83 win team.

Santos + Viciedo + Holmberg/Rodriguez? I think Santos would make a good guy to build this package around. I don't think they'd have much of a use for Flowers. Montero's going to be a very good offensive catcher for years to come.

QUOTE (chisox2334 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:48 AM) from jason stark: http://espn.go.com/mlb/notebook/_/id/53949...-trade-deadline three team deal arz, wash and chisox Who would we send to AZ? We don't have many good arms in the minors.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:13 AM) Which is no different from what Detroit has done, but they've spent even MORE money than the White Sox since 2006...significantly more. The difference being they lost in the World Series and also being edged out by Minnesota in Game 163. Minnesota has just had a better organizational philosophy over that entire time, and they've stayed true to it. Unfortunately, as with the Oakland A's and Atlanta Braves, that system only gets them so far before they run into a brick wall. And I wouldn't even say the 2006 team underachieved, I just think the wear and tear of all those pitches came down hard on the starting rotation and that 2005 team overachieved to such a degree that it was impossible to sustain that level of success...combined with Minnesota and Detroit both getting good quickly and rebounding. You can cite 10-12 teams every season that overspend and get poor results, and the White Sox probably wouldn't come up as one of the worst offenders for any season except for 2007. We only have to look miles to the north for a team in a much more dire financial position. And the Angels were basically gift-wrapped the AL West for most of this decade as the M's teams of the early 00's fell apart/got old, and the A's went through a series of financial, stadium and personnel issues...then you have Texas, which always had the hitting but not enough pitching. At least there's been quite a bit of competition between the White Sox, Twins, Indians and Tigers for much of this decade. The same can't be said of the AL West, and that's why all of those Angels teams since 2002 came up short. Comparing our situation to the Tigers and the AL West doesn't say much about this team constantly underachieving. Underachieving was this team's forte from 2001-2004 and then from 2006-2009. The team did underachieve in 2006. That team was built to win 95+ games. They wet the bed, they had a near double digit lead on Minnesota in July. You're not supposed to lose the division by 6 games when that happens. The problem with this organization is that people make way too many excuses. Citing that this organization used to be bad isn't an excuse for the current one. When you win a World Series and you raise your payroll towards the top of the league, you are expected to win on a consistent basis and win division championships, if not world championships. Kenny seems to have a similar type of killer instinct, but the thing is, the true potential of these past teams is not coming out.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:25 AM) And I want to say that I would not have traded Santos, Hudson and Sale for Haren and his contract, which isn't a bad contract in any sense of the imagination but is still pricey. * I know we can't trade Sale for a year, but I'm pointing out the fact that Sale is the guy in our system most similar to Skaggs (completely different pitchers, but in terms of high-upside guys). I should also state that I think the above package might be a little better than the Angels package, but it really depends on how much you value a proven commodity like Joe Saunders. That package is a lot better than what the Angels gave up. Hudson projects to be about the same pitcher as Saunders this year and he has room to improve. Sale is kind of similar to Skaggs, but Santos is a lot better than Rodriguez. In fact, I think the advantages that the Sox prospects overshadow the fact that the Angels also gave up an extra guy in Corbin.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:18 AM) The Diamondbacks did get a few years of elite pitching out of Haren, so lets not act like they didn't get his production for a period of time. And Haren also was cheaper at the time they acquired him which meant they had to give up a decent amount. But those guys happen to be prospects who panned out (Gonzalez and Anderson). But both of those were very, very established prospects. None of the guys they got back for Haren have anywhere near the sparkle of Carter, Gonzalez, and Anderson. And I'm not saying the Diamondbacks didn't get much from Haren from a performance standpoint, they did. But just because he's had one bad year doesn't mean he's regressing. His velocity is still there and it hasn't changed much from last year, the home runs are the only thing that's costing him this year. Even then, those might be the result of the park since his xFIP is at 3.40, only about .3 runs higher than it was last year.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 10:56 AM) Well the Angels paid a very significant price to get Haren. Saunders, despite his struggles this year, is a legitimate big league pitcher who has had a ton of success in the AL and on top of that they gave up 2 very good prospects and other pieces. It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs. They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for two good prospects, a mediocre one, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 08:06 AM) The first six years that KW was general manager he did not post a losing record. As for Ozzie, when you put up a .530 managerial record over 1100 games you are doing something right. Other than 2005 and maybe 2008, this team has UNDERACHIEVED every single year that he has been the manager given the amount of money we've put into the team and the talent that was on it. When you've had $95-$110 million payrolls these past 5 years, you expect to win every year. Kenny's right, 2007 and 2009 were embarrassments.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:15 AM) Haren- Angels (Who the hell saw that coming?) Oswalt- Cardinals Lilly- Twins Greinke- Yankees in a deal for Joba, Montero, others. If they deal Greinke to the hated Yanks, Royals fans will burn Kaufmann Stadium down Laroche Bullpen arm or bench player - White Sox Aramis Ramirez - Tigers Derrick Lee - Rangers Fixed Best fix I've ever seen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:10 AM) "The greatest trade rumor in baseball history" Hahahahaha. Hey, you have some overpriced crap players? Alright, I'll exchange them for my overpriced crappy players.

http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/5...o=7%2F26%2F2010 Pitch f/x looks fine to me. Not throwing strikes really isn't the problem. He had a lot of 0-2 counts yesterday, just wasn't able to finish the hitters off. He needs better pitch selection and he needs to throw the change-up more. Having a good slider would greatly help as well.

QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 09:36 PM) I don't really post much on here but I always check in for news, read threads from my phone to see how people feel, etc. Just trying to get the idea of Sox nation in comparison to my own views of things. In the past, I had posted on here about the sox organization as a whole. I was very adamant that we should've dealt away a majority of our team in 2007. We had come off a 2006 year where we were clearly one of the better teams in baseball but just couldn't get by the Twins and Tigers. At this point, we knew we had a weak farm and we also knew we had aging veteran's who were coming off of big seasons that could've fixed that problem for us. At the time, Cleveland looked like they would be superior shortly. We know and knew the Twins had our number and the Tigers looked to be on the up and up. A perfect time to deal off the vets, develop a farm, and unlike most teams who need to firesale, we had a 100 million dollar payroll we could've stretched back out through free agency putting us possibly in the same or better position in the majors hwile loading up the farm. The next year we watched our lack of bullets not land one of the best young players in baseball in Cabrera. Instead he went to our division, where he dominates, for guys who will not pan out but had that "big prospect" allure which we have majorly lacked for nearly a decade. Sure we've had one or two get way up there in the eyes of scouts but never has their been talk about major depth, both with high end prospects or middle guys. Our high end are considered middle and it hurts us. That reputation kills us in trades and I laugh because I see deals like today with Haren and wonder how the hell we couldn't top that, assuming we wanted to. Anyways, I'm not diving off the bandwagon because I believe we'll have to sell whats left down there to land a big bat but that big bat could get us deep into the season/playoffs. Go to a 3 man come playoffs and maybe, just maybe, make a run. Thats the optomist in me. The reality is that this seasons win streak was the worst thing for this club and our future. We finally were going to do what needed to be done. We could've seen how kenny did in a new environment of trading where he needs to stock things and not empty them. We have some hot bats, expiring contracts, good arms all that could be sold this season. Finally. in many cases, being sold too late to achieve optimal value. I understand loyalty but you do that for the greats, not one of the best players on s***ty teams. If we didn't have loyalty to Frank to let him stick it out full-time, and made the smart organizational move then there shouldn't be anything for buehrle or paulie. Those guys should've been moved years ago. Not saying their time is up, just saying they never were Johan or Pujols where their value hardly would take a hit, so you sometimes need to maximize value and sell high, not low. We didn't, we won't. Kenny is in a catch 22. Ozzie I think does stupid things. I think he is a decent manager but needs to manage according to what a smart gm thinks can win. Not what ozzie thinks his style needs to win because he is simply a baseball and NL purist. AL mindset is severly lacking. You need to do many of the things he preaches to be successful in either league. Difference is that in the AL, you cannot rely on them, you just need to do them well. I wanted both guys fired at the start of the season. I wanted them fired with how bad we were. Kenny for basically not having use to us if Ozzie would be deciding who was needed anyways. I wanted ozzie gone because it appeared to backfire but in all honesty today - I think Ozzie can stay. I by no means think he is a brilliant mind in a baseball sense when compared to others. But I think he knows his s*** enough that he is a decent manager. It could be worse - see jerry manuel. He has this team in first somehow. We all b**** about kotsay and company and then b**** about Ozzie. Well as bad as those guys are, then Ozzie msust be doing something right. Kenny I am not sure on. He may need to be the one who goes as I think he does some great things but some stupid ones. I think he is more concerned with his reputation and feeding that then he is actually about the sox. So that is my spiel. Lengthy but hopefully I contributed something of use and you can comment accordingly. Do not confuse the team's success with Ozzie's ability as a manager, especially on-field. The only credit I will give Ozzie for is keeping this team's heads up when we were buried in s***. But even then, the team was kind of due given the talent they had on the pitching staff and the weak schedule. Other than that, he hasn't done much to help. In fact, him not wanting Thome probably put the team in that hole to begin with. So he created a problem, kind of fixed it, and is now trying to ruin this team's chance at winning anything again by saying he doesn't want any help when he clearly needs it. I know it's bad to yell for help or say you want so and so as a manager, but if he really wanted help, he wouldn't be saying anything. Just remember this, you don't get credit for creating problems and patching them up.

Ozzie, finding more ways to score runs is not the key. SCORING RUNS IS THE KEY. It doesn't matter how you do it. And this whole "Mark Kotsay is just unlucky" bulls*** is getting old. Yes, his BABIP is low. But there's a damn reason for it. Go look at the amount of line drives he's hitting and you'll find out why he's nearing the mendoza line.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 09:25 PM) It was never Kotsay over Thome for DH. It was Santos over Thome. You just can't carry 12 pitchers and have Thome as a part-time DH on the roster. He doesn't play a position and he's going to have to be pinch-run for in close games. If the Sox were willing to ear Linebrink's contract they'd have re-signed Thome, but the Sox never eat contracts. So you're saying that you'd rather have Jayson Nix instead of Thome? When they said no to Thome, barely anybody knew who Sergio Santos even was.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 09:19 PM) EVERY SYSTEM IS OVERRATED. The internet has made everyone an armchair GM. Someone reads some glowing reviews on BA and suddenly the Rangers have the best system in the history of the game, fully stocked with certain future all-stars, even though none of us has ever seen any of them play. Ours is consistently underrated. A lot of it is reputation. And for some reason, the Cubs' system has always been way more overrated than just about any other system.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 09:11 PM) But 5 years before that they had one of the best rated systems in baseball. And look at how many great players they produced. I think there's a difference between what people like Keith Law thinks and what you actually have. The Cubs' minor league system has always been overrated.

QUOTE (jhonnydanks @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 08:34 PM) drink. relax. we have a good home stand coming up. jordan danks isn't even good. don't stop. get it get it

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 08:23 PM) When Hudson wins 17 games in a season, we'll talk. He won 33 games in 08 and 09 with a ERA of 3.98 and an FIP of 4.8. He got really lucky in 2008 with a low BABIP, but he got exposed last year and is getting even more exposed this year.

QUOTE (beckham15 @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 07:58 PM) TMAC comeback player of the year with the bulls? only one can hope! If that's the case, the Bulls would have a very good shot at the Eastern Conference finals. BTW, nothing is for certain with this deal. http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/...on-mcgrady.html

Frasor basically blew two of those games in the Tigers, Jays series.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 08:01 PM) No kidding. In Haren/Weaver/Santana, the Angels now have a trio that rivals any in the AL at least through 2012 under control at more than a reasonable cost. I don't know if they can make the playoffs this year, but they'll be really dangerous going into 2011. Really reminds me of the Peavy trade last year and my thought process about it.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 08:04 PM) Not saying that it was at all possible, but I would much rather have Haren at that money than Peavey at his salary, and IMO our package for Peavey was better than what DBacks got. Oh definitely.