Eminor3rd

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 23, 2015 -> 02:35 PM) Give me a do-over on this thread. I didn't realize Salvy was a stiff or at best just another guy. My bad. Granted! He's not a stiff at all, I just wouldn't consider his offense the "ceiling" -- I don't think we should simply accept that we won't get any offense out of the position.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 23, 2015 -> 01:23 PM) He's the standard for an excellent all around catcher. Who is regarded as better than him? Definitively or "arguably"? Defensively? Buster Posey, Russell Martin, Francisco Cervelli, Yadier Molina, Rene Rivera, and Jonathan Lucroy would be the definites. I would argue that Yan Gomes, Alex Avila, AJ Ellis, Martin Maldonado, Jesus Sucre, and Austin Hedges would at least be considered in the same class. Offensively? Well, here's a list of catchers (minimum 100PA) that had better offensive seasons in 2015 (by wRC+): Buster Posey Curt Casali Travis D'Arnaud Francisco Cervelli Chris Giminez AJ Ellis Yasmani Grandal Stephen Vogt Russell Martin AJ Pierzynski (lol) Roberto Perez (who?) Hank Conger Miguel Montero Josh Phegley (!) Brian McCann Robinson Chirinos Nick Hundley Jarrod Saltalamacchia Matt Weiters JR Murphy Welington Castillo Derek Norris Steve Clevenger Geovany Soto Jonathan Lucroy Blake Swihart Andrew Susac

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 23, 2015 -> 02:05 PM) That is true. Catchers don't hit much. Even the standard, the great Salvy Perez hit .260 (.280 OBP) with 21 homers and 70 ribbies. That's great and all but again, he's the best and only hitting .260; .280. Flowers coincidentally in a lot fewer at bats hit .239 with nine homers, 39 ribbies and .295 OPB; Soto hit .219, 9 hrs, 21 ribbies and .301 OBP. So combined the Sox catching hit 18 homers to Perez's 21 and had 60 ribbies to Perez's 70. And Flowers arguably is a decent defender, though he's no Salvy. Interesting that catcher did suck but like HH said catcher was no huge problem compared to most teams. He's right. We need to upgrade two of those spots. I'd say if we could upgrade 3B and RF (no way we can dump LaRoche on anybody) that would be a start because arguably Micah/Sanchez would be 'OK' and Trayce 'OK' in right. We can't go with Avi anymore as a regular. He's that bad. If you think Salvador Perez is the gold standard for catcher offense, I'm not sure we're watching the same sport.

QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Oct 23, 2015 -> 12:00 PM) Fine, have them throw in Piscotty too. QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Oct 23, 2015 -> 12:04 PM) Or Molina.

QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Oct 23, 2015 -> 11:33 AM) Alexei, Laroche, Garcia for Wong

Just a side note: remember that projections guess at playing time, too, but that's often not real useful. For example, if you want to see what Trayce Thompson is projected to put up next if he takes over RF full-time, you should use Steamer600, which essentially just projects every player as if he were a full-timer (600PA for position players, 450PA for catchers, 200IP for starters, 65IP for relievers).

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Oct 22, 2015 -> 10:26 PM) If the recent past (nine years) is prologue with the White Sox that's probably a pretty good bet. Mark Ugh

The postseason isn't even over and we've already written off 2016.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Oct 22, 2015 -> 07:21 PM) No reason to give up assets to trade for an older and more expensive version of Eaton. Spend the money, and get one of the top 3 OFs. Unless you mean $200m for Heyward, you're going to be committing a ton of money to yet another bad defender with a declining bat. Gardner is a plus defender with young-player skills that's already shown he can develop more power as his approach evolves. Those guys tend to age really well.

QUOTE (Mike F. @ Oct 22, 2015 -> 05:00 PM) Isn't Gardner just a more expensive and older version of Eaton? Yep! But that doesn't mean we couldn't use a second Eaton that's a bit older and more expensive.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Oct 22, 2015 -> 03:09 PM) I would love Upton. I'd rather we be the place that the Yankees trade Gardner to make room for Upton.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 22, 2015 -> 02:28 PM) I'd say by all means trade Eaton. Any way we can acquire Tulo? He'd be a difference maker. We need some stars. This post is so greg Translation: QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 22, 2015 -> 02:28 PM) I'd say by all means trade one of our few good players, despite the fact that he's signed long-term at a below-market rate. Any way we can acquire a player who performed well in the playoffs recently and who is very obviously NOT available? Since he's a good player, he would make our team better. We would win more if we had more good players.

Trading Eaton would be asinine.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 20, 2015 -> 03:03 PM) Bad health...major injuries to key pieces. Basically losing any of six players for significant time would cripple the Sox next year. Knock on wood. Yeah, I meant "worst case" specifically among the new acquisitions. Samardzija - Bad Melky - Bad LaRoche - Extra Bad Duke - Extra Bad Robertson - Solid, if streaky That's rough.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 20, 2015 -> 12:14 PM) But again, it would have been better to have added a young player or two as opposed to 3 or 4 veterans. We are one year later talking about the same holes we did last year- 3b-SS-DH-C and possibly even 2B. Instead we rented all older players who ultimately had bad years. It is understandable that it happened at DH since you tend to add a 30+ year old to that spot. But Beckham, Boni, Melky were all stop gap measures. It is too bad they did not get at least one good prospect in place of one of them. Well, yeah, but to get a young, controlled option at a premium position would have moved the cost into the "giving up the future" range. If it was a guy who you were comfortable "giving up the future" for, then that guy isn't going to be available in the first place.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 15, 2015 -> 08:10 PM) I think the problem with the 2015 moves is they did not upgrade any position with young talent.I agree they failed w the veterans they added but did not incur bad contracts. So 2015 was really a wasted year in that from a rebuilding standpoint, they did not improve. In hindsight, it is unfortunate that they couldn't have filled at least 1 or 2 holes with a talented young player. Maybe Sanchez has a chance to be that but his offense so far has been poor. We can also still hope Avi rebounds but that hope is running out. The good news is Q and Rodon improved and Sale is still a star. I mean, there's no question that 2015 was a terrible year, but that's because outcomes were MUCH worse than anyone expected. If LaRoche puts up anything even close to a career average year, for example, then his one-year, $12m deal for 2016 looks shrewd and low-risk. I'm just trying to illustrate the difference between the ad-hoc and the actual state in which decisions were made (and must be made going forward) Put another way: every time we make an acquisition, there are a range of expected possible outcomes assigned to the player. We improbably saw EVERY 2015 acquisition turn out near the worst possible outcome, and yet we aren't buried. Yes, things obviously look worse than before, but this was almost literally the WORST CASE SCENARIO. And that scenario is one where there's no one making more than $13m at a time, and only one of those guys is even still around after 2017.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 15, 2015 -> 06:27 PM) Sensible comment displaying ability to hold two thoughts in head at same time. What is it doing on this site? Don't worry -- it's fleeting. I'll get knocked into rage mode along with everyone else once the offseason officially starts.

QUOTE (Hamhock @ Oct 20, 2015 -> 09:52 AM) Luckily, it doesn't need to! Touche.

QUOTE (Hamhock @ Oct 20, 2015 -> 09:26 AM) I'll say this much about Dominic; his one very good season (2013) directly coincided with Wally Joyner being the Phillies assistant hitting coach, and Wally worked extensively with him throughout that year. When Wally left the Phillies at the end of 2013, so did Dominic's production. That correlation won't hold up in court, my friend.

Left-handed Avi. He won't sign just to be stashed in Charlotte, so it won't work. Aim higher.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 18, 2015 -> 01:37 PM) Wasn't there a rumor going into the draft that Theo coveted Rodon? I mean I'm sure tons of GMs coveted Rodon.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 19, 2015 -> 08:03 AM) Or the Sox could move Eaton to left and Trayce to center and move Melky on his way. That would improve the D significantly. Avi, in his first full season, hit a whole .34 OPS less than Melky and had twice the number of assists. Even better, sell high on Eaton- rather trade him to plug holes than Quintana. So we've got two bad outfielders and one good outfielder, and you'd rather use the flash-in-the-pan prospect to replace the good one?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 15, 2015 -> 12:32 PM) It is getting better. Unlike the free agent market, these things aren't immediately obvious. Good signs -The Sox put multiple minor leaguers who were drafted/originally signed and developed by the team, into key roles and had some levels of success. Chances are somewhere between 1 and 3 starters of the position players will be guys fully developed by the organization. While not great, it is an improvement. -The Sox have put something over $10 million into Latin America over the last 4 years or so, and those players are starting to show up state side. -The highest rated position players are still moving through the system, and will be here soon. -The team has added a ton of talent to the system in the last few years through the draft. -Despite the amount of players that have graduated from being rankable, the system ranking is steadily moving upwards. I agree with you. General consensus seems to be that the Sox buried themselves for the next few years by "going for it" in 2015, but I don't think that's the case at all. I liked the moves they made almost solely because they DIDN'T bury themselves. Offering high dollar/low years free agent contracts, trading only mid-tier prospects exclusively from positions of depth, and continually increasing (or at least maintaining) investment levels in amateur talent despite the ML payroll increase are about the best possible strategies for building a sustained winner without nuking the entire system and turning Bridgeport into a post-apocalyptic wasteland for five years in the process.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 15, 2015 -> 02:25 PM) Actually Maddon did the same thing in Tampa. He was constantly subbing in late innings, mixing up starters and really using all 25 players on the roster. Did you think we needed to see more Emilio Bonifacio?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 15, 2015 -> 12:17 PM) Which is exactly what we saw in KC, Montreal, and Pittsburgh for long periods of time. Exactly! If the Sox are failing at developing talent around their stars, the answer is to get better at developing talent around their stars. Hitting 'reset' just means you have to find the stars all over again and STILL face the challenge of developing talent around them.