Eminor3rd

The fact that they were "never going to" sign those guys doesn't give them a pass for not signing those guys.

Correct, and occasionally guys come along who outperform their FIP every year, enough to make a statistically significant argument that it's sustainable Keuchel is not one of those guys. His career ERA and FIP are right in line.

I don't know who Mike North is, so, if that's an insult, I'm sorry but I'm not feeling it. A large contingent of the industry, both in and outside the MLB, does not believe that pitch framing is valued correctly in the numbers that we are seeing. The fact that Grandal continues to sign deal way below what pitch-framing-infused WAR would suggest is strong evidence of that claim. Maybe the White Sox are on the right side of this, but it would be the first time. Their track record for developing and valuing catchers is hilariously bad. All that said, he's still better than a mid-tier player, I'll grant that. But it's very likely he isn't actually a 6-win superstar. I'm glad they have him, but the money would have been better spent on elite pitching.

But between him and the fact that one of your org's better prospects is also a C/DH and really needs ABs -- it's way further down the list of priorities is my point. I know it's not as simple as this because there was WAY more than just money that went into these signings, but purely as a mathematical example: Would you rather have: 1. Grandal/McCann (~$24M) 2. Keuchel (~$18M) or 1. McCann/Collins (~$6m) 2. Cole (~$36M) Because it's the same amount of money. Again, I don't think the White Sox could have signed Cole for $36m/yr, but it's just that this is the way this ends up with the White Sox every time. I just want them to do better then "well, at this point this move was the one left that made the most sense."

Not the real deal, just not among the holes the team actually needed to fill.

If defense had absolutely nothing to do with how many runs a pitcher gives up, you'd be right. But it does, so...

I know I'm going to get shit on for being negative, because everyone is excited that they don't have to watch Dylan Covey pitch all year, and I get that, but looking at this in full context, I hate all of it. Classic White Sox. Get the 6th best guy on the market for roughly $50M, call it a marquee signing because the guy used to be good. The guy had a 4.72 FIP last year. Wasn't even worth 1 WAR in 112 innings. He's a fourth starter with the upside to be a 3. THIS is what I was afraid of. "The money will be spent" means spending $15-20M on a handful of okay players. It's Melky Cabreras all over again. All the teams that actually get to the playoffs are developing their averageish players and buying the elite talent to truly supplement their core. Altogether now, the White have committed a bit over $60m next year to: 1. A good catcher to upgrade a spot where they already had a solid player, who may be overvalued because we aren't actually sure how to quantify pitch framing 2. A slightly above average 1B/DH 3. a SP with a near 5 FIP last year, worth just under 1.5 fWAR if you extrapolated to a full season. Steamer project 2.6 next year, mostly on past track record. 4. 34-year old Gio Gonzalez 5. a reclamation project RF who has failed for four seasons now. Meanwhile, the Yankees have committed $36M to Gerrit Cole, the best pitcher in baseball, who Steamer projects at 6 and half wins. The White Sox spent nearly TWICE as much on a bunch of useful spare parts. Having missed on the actual difference makers, the White Sox would have been better off just punting until next year, and letting their players continue to develop, to have another shot at a true difference maker in Betts or whatever. Except of course that they would never actually have a chance at Betts, because the ownership/front office is too afraid of long-term contracts to actually have a chance to win. Every successful team is investing heavily in player development and then being opportunistic with elite, big-time players. The White Sox won't play that game. Yeah, I know, if literally everything goes as good as it could go next year, the Sox could win 85-90 games. Everyone is healthy, everyone takes a step forward, no one regresses, etc. But, I'll put it this way: there are only two teams insisting on this strategy of spending inefficient FA money on 5 middle-of-the-road players instead of 2 elite ones -- and it's the White Sox and the Reds. That's your model. Basically the Pirates the last five years.

Dump the farm to get a player that plays the same position as our current best player AND eats up some or all of the free agent money we would theoretically use to get pitching, which we DESPERATELY NEED. Why?

This is the correct answer, I believe

We should hope Lindor is NOT traded. The White Sox have failed to get the pitching they need to push in for next year (and they seem to know it; Mazara is a rebuilding move, not a win-now move), meaning the true competitive window begins 2021 at the earliest. We would be better off if CLE continues to push in now versus getting future value for Lindor, thus making them stronger when it’s more important to the White Sox.

I disagree with that strongly. The Q trade made sense for both teams. The Cubs were smack in the middle of a contention window, badly needed pitching, and preferably pitching that was controllable through the rest of the window -- and the trade partner is only a problem in the heads of a select group of local meatball fans, none of which would change any of their consuming habits based on the trade at all. The rebuilding White Sox couldn't have been farther away from affecting the Cubs future at all. A Lindor trade makes sense for neither. Cleveland would be trading its best player in the division, essentially defeating the purpose of trying to slightly weaken itself but still be able to compete because the division sucks. The White Sox would be trading high end, close to the majors prospects that it needs to pencil in its roster over the next couple seasons just to get a two year player in a position it already has filled, to take a two year shot with a highly flawed team with many others holes, specifically INSTEAD of using those chips to fill the actual holes they have. They would shorten their window while also hurting their ability to fill out the roster for the shortened window. Anything close to a fair, market-value trade would literally be the dumbest move the regime has made in the past two decades, at least.

I cannot imagine a less likely scenario than the White Sox trading for Lindor.

I would love to hear that “argument”

Which numbers? Strikeouts per nine under 8, walks per nine over 3? Both of those, by the way, are skewed positive by his two good season in 2013 and 2014. He’s projected for 4 walks per nine next year. Just 37% ground ball rate moving to GRF? That’s dangerous. He’a fine as a fifth starter. I wouldn’t want him on any more than a one year deal unless it was super cheap.

I think the memo you missed was the one about how people evaluate hitting statistics since about 2006. No, he hasn’t proven anything — he’s a prospect. And one with a long history of elite on base and power numbers. The idea is that, given some practice and coaching, those numbers will translate as the player ages and improves. Edwin Encarnacion sucked too, actually, in his first hundred or so plate appearances in the MLB. And the idea is that, with or without a veteran DH, this team is still about three good arms short of reasonable, and the options to get those arms are running out fast, so it might make sense to give the prospect that chance to improve this year so that he’ll be better when/if the team ever DOES decide to compete.

Clase’s stuff is unbelievably good. Insane movement with that much velo. Deshields is a fifth OF

Come on

We’re gonna run like an $80M payroll man.

Would have loved to root for this guy in Chicago. Known to be a student of the game, and said in interviews he was looking for the right environment to make him a better hitter. Not surprised he ended up taking a discount to join a progressive team.

Yeah that’s all you need to know about those two guys to make a judgement.

You’ve got a shockingly strong opinion of Josh Lindblom for someone who appears to know nothing about Josh limblom. Weird how Mazara could “blossom to his full potential” But lindblom couldn’t possibly have gotten any better in the three years since the stats you’re referencing.

Lol are you serious

Do they need Nomar Mazara?

Without analyzing each player at all, the offensive environment in 2019 was drastically different than 2014.

Definitely seems a handful of wins better. The problem is it started at 72.