Flash Tizzle

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 10:06 PM) WLS says a 6 year old boy in one of the cars involved has now died. Can't imagine driving along a road you've probably passed thousands of times, and seemingly out of nowhere comes a 737 crashing through metal barriers. I've driven down the Cicero corridor of Midway Airport countless times--airplanes appear to scrape the top of your car while landing. Wonder how many people are rethinking their commute after this incident.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 07:43 PM) OMG. That's VERY bad.....I just flew out of Midway LAST Thursday.....scary s***. Fortunately, it doesn't sound too bad. CLTV alledges a car may be trapped. When I heard the news I imagined a plane traveling several hundred miles an hour slamming through the wall and devastating several city blocks.

Holy s***. Reports are a 737 barreled through the wall lining 55th and Central.

Took nearly 40 minutes to travel 2 miles earlier this afternoon. Although this is when the heavy snowfall began, which is usually the worst time for travel. Damn--it appears to still be snowing right now. I hope it warms up tomorrow, because I'm sure as hell not shoveling the snow off my driveway. Too damn cold out.

I wish it would have only taken Munoz, Baj, or Adkins.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 05:31 PM) Does anyone really think Williams traded away Marte with zero plan to find his replacement? Really now, come on. Even the White Sox website says they've lined up a lefty or two with a similar profile to Marte from 2002. How much do you suppose these players with profiles similar to Marte will cost? I'm afraid for whichever pitcher Williams covets we'll be forced to overpay. Likely with our minor league pitching talent-- which isn't exactly stocked.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 05:15 PM) Why? Marte couldnt do either of those, and you claim Marte was "vital" to this team, so why should his replacement? I apologize for generalizing-- Instead of posting a 3.50 as an arbitrary cutoff point, any potential pitcher will have to post a 3.77 ERA. HUGE difference. Why should his replacement post a reasonable ERA or good numbers against lefties? Well, because the alternative is a medicore pitcher with poor statistics. If Williams is looking to just replace Marte with anyone because Marte couldn't fulfill either a 3.50 ERA or good stats against LH's, then just rap up the offseason now. I don't want another Mike Jackson signed to fill a roster spot.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 04:54 PM) ...and where do we factor in the option that the traded player and manager could no longer work together? I didn't factor it in. I realize this team has good chemistry, but sensible decisions still should be made. Such as providing equal return for relief pitchers. And obtaining pitchers capable of replacing the numbers of a departed player. Williams has plenty of time to accomplish the latter, but what will have to be given up for a pitcher capable of consistently retiring LH's? You did mention that as a reason for trading Marte, no? If Marte was useless because of his inability to work with Guillen, and his poor splits against LH's, then surely we need a quality replacement. For all the insults directed at him (myself included), he's not as simple to replace as Blum was Now that I've answered you, answer me: which pitcher would you suggests replaces Marte in the bullpen? How much do you suppose we'll have to give up in a trade? Remember, he must be capable of either posting a 3.50 ERA or owning lefties.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 04:17 PM) The armchair GMs out in force. Damaso Marte--who had a falling-out with the team, as clear as day--could no longer pitch within this organization. The emergence of Neal Cotts and Marte's inability to get out left-handed hitters, coupled with being in a "must move" situation, not only made him expendable, but valuable in the sense of adding a first-class utility player. If Damaso Marte got lefties out, you'd have an arguement on your hands. But, he can't, so, you don't have a leg to stand on. Where are these available pitchers capable of consistently retiring LHH's? Myers fit the billing, but unfortunately, is now a Yankee. If none of the available FA LH's suits our needs, then what are the remaining options? To obtain someone who consistently retires LH's we'll have to overpay. I'd rather have kept Marte, obtained our LH replacement, THEN trade him for whomever. Even if it meant less value. I just believe this trade sets us back further than it helps us. Now, opposed to keeping Marte and searching for a UTL infielder, we've filled our UTL infield position and are left searching for a quality pitcher to replace Marte. Which sounds easier to accomplish in your mind?

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 04:26 PM) Can you count on Marte going back to 03 form? No, but even if he reverts to 2005 form he's still--at worst--an above average left hander. His final relief appearances did give this impression. He appeared defeated. Now, I don't regret trading Marte if a replacement of equal value is obtained. That is, a pitcher capable of posting a 3.50 ERA--at the least. In addition, the capability of holding LH to low BAA's; something I realize Marte was poor at this year. Browsing the thread devoted to LHP's available on the market, it's not a very extensive listing of viable talent. As of now, with Myers a Yankee, I'm just wondering where we go from here? I figure another LH with be obtained, but at what cost? Mack fills a few voids that this team needed to fill. Crede can now get the days off that he needs becasue of his back, we add depth at 2b, and in the OF(where we need it, BAD, IMO) and adds a LH stick which is nice to have when Crede, Iguchi, and Anderson are all RH. Mackowiak could have been obtained later in the offseason. If anything, bench issues are resolved last with a team. Even if a LHP were signed with Marte already on the roster, I'm positive Marte would have been enough for Mackowiak.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) Maybe I just undervalued Marte last season, but was he really a VITAL piece of our team last season? Really? He was a component of a solid bullpen. Your snapshot of Marte consists of blown saves and various forms of bed wetting. I believe his inconsistency was due to an injury more than mental problems. His breaking ball was consistently flat, and his delivery was ackward. If the White Sox felt it was injury related, and were unwilling to treat his trapezius issues, then perhaps it benefits us. But until information is released which indicates that, I'll continue to hold my position trading him for Mackowiak alone was unnecessary. More than any quantifiable reason for trading Marte (high whip, lack of control late in the year), I wouldn't mind keeping him as insurance. Can you depend on Hermanson, Cotts, Politte all posting stats similar to their 2005 totals?

QUOTE(indyman @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 03:24 PM) No. Should've kept Blum. Marte had a bad couple months .. but in the last two or three years he's one of the best LHRP. Myers isn't coming to Chicago. I just don't understand Williams thought process here. We remove someone, albeit a slight headcase and wildly inconsisent, from a vital component of our team. Who gives a f*** about the bench? I wouldn't have been concerned enough about it this early in the offseason. Oh, but now that we have Mackowiak to solidify our bench there's a gapping hole from the left side of our bullpen. Ultimately, from the merits of this trade, our bench is improved, whereas our bullpen lost a key contributer. I trust Williams finds an LH option, but with Myers gone I'm concerned.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 03:55 PM) There's a lot of time left before the season starts. Should have added this on--of the available pitchers on the FA market who could serve as a lefthanded option, Myers was about it. Now, we're left with Rule 5, in-house options, or creating another trade. I'd rather have spent the money on Myers, overpaying or not, then give up anything else for another relief pitcher. And I'll GUARANTEE Williams will have to overpay. Rather overpay with money than talent.

UH OH! Well, Williams has disappointed me. Marte's trade was not as carefully planned as I envisioned. I thought there would be NO way he'd initiate a trade for Marte unless a replacement were ready underneath. It's not too much to expect this, right?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 12:55 PM) I think at face value its equal. The guy was s***ty last year and got worse at the end. HE had no value because everyone knew we didnt want him. Economics people. If economics were that easy, then Rowand/Haigwood/Gonzalez shouldn't have been included in a trade for Thome. Phillies were desperate to get rid of him and every knew they were shipping him, right? His stats were poor last year, right? Yet a good package for Thome was assembled for Philadelphia. I find it hard to believe NO other team would have given us a better package. Even in his poor years he still was a quality reliever. I would have expected atleast one extra mid-level pitching prospect in any trade involving Marte.

I've learned recently the most important aspect of Williams' trades, atleast those which may appear lopsidded or unequal, are the events which occur afterwards. Trading Vizcaino and Podsednik for a fair priced Carlos Lee didn't apper very equal, but the financial flexibility alloted to Williams gave us Iguchi, Pierzynski, Hernandez. This trade, at it's face value, doesn't do much for me. Marte has proven himself as a valuable left-handed relief pitcher with the ability to dominate both LH and RH batters. Mackowiak, at his best, is a versatile option off the bench. More should have been netted; especially during the current trade market for relief pitchers. Pittsburgh took advantage of our willingness to unload Marte. If Williams signs Myers, however, the trade is justified.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 10:15 AM) Eagles- "Hotel California" This should be controversial -- it's like the #1 frat jam of all time. It's amazing how Hotel California remains one of the highest selling albums of all-time. I don't dislike The Eagles, as does The Dude, but I never considered them worthy of selling 20 million+ albums.

QUOTE(Middle Buffalo @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 10:10 AM) "There are some words that do not belong in a rock song." I think that is one of the all-time odd word choices in a song. Or, clinging off 3e8's reference to Touch Me, the line "Stronger than dirt." It comes out of absolutely nowhere and has no reference to the song.

Hate it. When I hear read 'nomore' I think of NOMARRR.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 09:43 AM) For all of the talk about the Marlins having the Cubs by the balls, it seems like they could've gotten someone like Hill. This is what I don't understand. Doesn't leverage exist for teams not negotiating with the White Sox? It annoys me how we're continually forced into overpaying, whereas goofs such as Hendry seemingly have their wishes fulfilled every year. It's just odd whatever his need is, there's a team out there willing to give it to him. Need a 3B, Hendry? Here, take Ramirez. Who cares about the package involved, or the fact we're trading within our division? Need a 1B, Hendry? Here, take Lee. Call us when you need another player. Need a cheap, young starting pitcher? Here, take Williams. We'll gladly remove Hawkins from your hands. Need a SS, Hendry? You can take Nomar, a discontent in our clubhouse, and we'll give you a good OF prospect, whereas you unload Gonzalez and Francis Beltran.

Well, considering the Marlins received three players, albeit largely unproven, in total for Juan f***ing Pierre I wouldn't exactly compliment Quasimodo. I know I'd rather overpay with money than prospects. And considering the cash produced at Wrigley Field, Furcal should have been obtained. I'm not complimenting Hendry. f*** him. Three (or more) for One player swaps consistently have the one player involved whom exceeds expecatations and validates the trade. Mitre wins 10-12 games alone for the Marlins next it will be worth it. Meanwhile, Pierre could potentially leave the Cubs (although I doubt it) following 2006. Cubs filled a void from the leadoff position and Marlins restocked their farm system. For the immediate future, Hendry filled his position; although I'll leave the Hendry ball licking to Rotoworld.

QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ Dec 7, 2005 -> 12:34 AM) I had the summer off studying and I was actually really impressed with Mitre's stuff, he seems to throw a heavy ball, and I think he can be an intriguing pitcher. You must have exclusively watched his pitching performance against Florida (where he had something like 10 K's) and missed his final start against the White Sox where he was unmercifully pummeled. Both pitchers could show up on any given evening. Just think about this--Mitre lost his placement in the rotation. A Cub's rotation which featured several minor league retreads reminiscent of 2003-2004 White Sox. I'd make it simple for the Cubs--include Mitre+A prospect or Hill + B prospect for Pierre.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 6, 2005 -> 10:42 PM) From NSBB Since I'm not very immersed in the Cubs minor league system, can someone please tell me whether these two prospects (Nolasco and Pinto) are valuable commodities? I've never heard of either. Hopefully, Quasimodo won't wiggle himself out of overpaying for Pierre. Since Pittsburgh isn't involved, and there aren't large contracts and worthless players named Bobby Hill to unload, perhaps a valuable prospect will have to be delt.

QUOTE(jenksd @ Dec 5, 2005 -> 11:10 PM) http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/podcast/player?id=2245138 edit: If you don't have insider I can hook you up, if that's not against the rules. Sure, it's not against the rules-- QUICK, PM me before the Mods find out!

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 5, 2005 -> 10:35 PM) Are you implying how Beane seems to be worshiped by most on here? I didn't intend to suggest anyone on Soxtalk (atleast on this thread-- ) are Beane apologists. Just my sarcastic manner of addressing Beane's Disciples. Nothing posted within this thread influenced my post.