ChiSox59

QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 12:40 PM) I don't think the Red Sox would move both JBJ and Benintendi. I know you've said the same earlier in the thread, but I don't think a rental of Melky really changes anything. JBJ and Benintendi are both franchise CFers. The BoSox could move one, but moving both would take a huge strength and turn it into a huge hole. Neither Melky Cabrera or Brock Holt will make a difference in that regard. I do think a lot of posters on this board are underrating JBJ. I know we're trading the best asset the White Sox have ever had in this hypothetical and people want better than JBJ as a headliner, but JBJ is a .340-.360 OBP guy with 20+ dingers and great defense. Other than depth of the roster, our problem is the lack of power/OBP/defense. JBJ does all of those things at a premium position. At home, he can really take away the gaps. Seeing what Lorenzo Cain does when KC come to town, it would be incredible to have our own guy forcing teams to hit the long ball to win. Especially with Eaton in RF. I think Kopech is the guy the Sox would insist on including. He'd be the next ace prospect in the system hopefully to replace Sale in a few years. He had some makeup concerns coming out of the draft and has since been suspended for stims and suspended for fighting with a teammate. That adds another layer of risk on a 20 year old who throws 100+. He is filthy though. Despite a clear need to stop tipping his off-speed pitches, Kopech absolutely dominated A+ as a 20 year old. He stays tall and closed on the fastball but has a bad habit of dropping down and slowing down on the offspeed offerings. From my largely untrained eye, his mechanics would check out with the Sox. So to me, one of JBJ/Benintendi is a must. Kopech is a must. One of Swihart/Vazquez makes too much sense. If it's JBJ, we need Moncada too. If it's Bentinendi, the last four pieces are higher quality guys than the last three on Moncada/JBJ starter. If we could somehow get Moncada/JBJ that would be incredible. My deals in order of preference and least likelihood: 1.) Moncada, JBJ, Kopech, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson. 2.) Benintendi, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson 3.) JBJ, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Luis Alexander Basabe Nice post. I would be livid with that third trade. Sox need to do better than that.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 11:56 AM) I said it 6 weeks ago that I would be PISSED if JBJ was the centerpiece of a Sale deal. He has bust written all over him if he ended up on the south side (from an offensive standpoint). Centerpeice - meaning we don't get Moncada/Devers or Benintendi/Devers, I would agree. If JBJ is in the deal with Benintendi and Devers, or Moncada and Devers, I am cool with it. His OF defense in CF and keeping Eaton in RF would be phenominal. An OF of Benintendi / JBJ / Eaton would be one of the best, if not the best, defensively in MLB.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 09:44 AM) Re: The Red Sox, I can see them trading one of their OF, I can't see them trading both Benetiendi AND JBJ, unless they think Moncada (and obviously isn't in the deal) is ready to play out there today. If they trade both, they create a hole out there. They already have a large hole to fill in Ortiz. I think the White Sox would be able to get one of Ben and JBJ for a deal to make sense for both sides. Personally I could see the White Sox settling around JBJ, Moncada, and a couple of pitchers. Koepech is obviously a guy who will get their attention, plus a guy like Groome can be dealt after the World Series as well. If not you could sub a guy like Devers for one of the pitchers. I assume that the Red Sox wouldn't WANT to trade both JBJ and Benintendi, but they do have Holt who can play the OF everyday. Plus they could sign a Reddick or Cespedes, or could get a Melky back in a bigger trade involving Sale. Sale and Melky JBJ, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech and Rodriguez

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 07:41 AM) I agree that they would trade him for Sale. I just don't think you're going to get a mega package with a guy like Benintendi or Moncada coming with. The reality is that if you really wanted to do a full tear down, you could flip him to another team for a nice load of prospects by himself, making him a good centerpiece regardless. The Sox are going to want at least 1-2 ML ready or young MLB players for Sale. They're not trading him for 5-6 prospects in the traditional sense.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 03:07 PM) Yeah but that's bulls*** and highlighting that goes right to the Democrats position on taxes I don't disagree - but its the way the law currently works. Not using the benefits that the tax laws provide just to be a "nice guy" and pay more taxes than you actually have to would be asinine. The man's job has always been to maximize returns on his investments for himself and his partners/investors. Paying more taxes for funsies would go directly against that. Again, Trump is an asshat. But the fact that he LEGALLY used the US tax code to avoid paying personal income tax shouldn't be used again him. There are plenty of other things to rag on him about - but the fact that Hilary keeps going back to this, to me, seems like she doesn't understand it.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 03:00 PM) Huh? Without huge losses how would he not pay income tax? Warren Buffet paid: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipse...2/#1d9dac00491d Do you think that Warren Buffet doesn't follow basic accounting laws? Ugh. Warren Buffet is not a real estate developer.

QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 03:00 PM) If Trump wasn't such a moron he could easily respond to that whole issue by pointing out that every major donor for Hillary has a company that "legally" dodges BILLIONS in taxes every year. He did that last night.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 02:56 PM) There is nothing basic about our tax laws, especially those that somehow allow millionaires to pay so much less than they should have paid. It actually is pretty basic. Like I said, no real estate developers of any size pay personal income tax. What he is doing is the same as every other person who owns significant amount of commercial real estate.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 02:54 PM) But that's just it. Had the clown simply released his tax returns and used this as a reason to defend his "brilliant businessman" storyline, he'd be set. There's dirty s*** in there, so he won't do that. He could have shut down that argument (to which Hillary would have simply adjusted to talking about how losing $916,000,000 in one year is f***ed up). But, since he's a moron, he gloats in the worst way possible and looks even more like the horse's ass he already resembles. a) he didn't actually lose $1B in one year. Again, tax laws. b) I don't know if something dirty is in there or not, but when you own as much real estate as Donald owns, and presumably he will go back to that business when he loses this election, releasing his tax returns probably isn't in the best interest of his real estate operation. c) His whole "brilliant businessman" line is equally as stupid. You don't become a billionaire without being a pretty fiscally intelligent person, but him not paying income taxes has nothing to do with his fiscal brilliance. Its the law.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 02:45 PM) Right, but that is part of the game. Trump can either take what Hillary is saying, or admit he was such a genius businessman, and under his direction making deals, all the US will ever do is win, and win so much we all will be sick of winning, he didn't have to pay federal taxes for almost 20 years because he lost so much money making great deals. The large loss carryforwards from the casino business not withstanding, Trump wouldn't have paid a dime in person income taxes anyway. That's not because he doesn't make a ton of money, its because his accountants follow basic accounting laws. There are a bunch of reasons to hate and/or dislike Trump - the lack of paying income taxes isn't one of them. The whole thing is stupid.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 02:10 PM) To me the presumption(?) that he didnt pay taxes isnt really the big deal here. The fact that he didnt pay taxes because his businesses bottomed out so royally that he doesnt have to pay taxes is the big deal, because he is being sold as SUCCESSFUL AND EXTREMELY WEALTHY BUSINESSMAN DONALD TRUMP many people have avoided taxes because of bankruptcy, not many have avoided taxes that long because of a bankrupty of that amount of money Sure, but that's not really the way Hilary portrays it. She moreso portrays it that he didn't help the country for all those years (last night she even listed off all the things tax dollars are used for - schools, military, infrastructure, etc.) because he didn't pay taxes. Loss carryforwards are a basic accounting practice; basically all real estate developers that have any significant holdings don't pay personal income tax. It's not exactly rocket science. Amortization and depreciation are non-cash expenses that lower the taxable net income of individual real estate holdings. When you own as many real estate assets as Trump owns, these numbers are quite significant. The fact that he took advantage of those tax laws (as all wealthy Americans should do), isn't exactly damning. It's sort of bewildering that Hilary keep focusing on it - its almost like she doesn't get it. What I don't get is why Donald doesn't just take a few minutes to explain this step by step in a debate. The fact that Trump ventured into the casino business and failed, which is the source of the lionshare of the ~$1B in loss carryforwards in 1995 should definitely be viewed as a negative, but the fact that he took that failure and used a basic tax law to shelter income for the foreseeable future is something that any person in that situation would do.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 06:46 AM) Trump also seemed to confirm that he didn't by federal income taxes for at least 20 years. Plus he had his own Aleppo moment when he was asked about what would happen if the city fell. Just curious - would you pay taxes that you didn't have to pay?

QUOTE (midway @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 12:54 PM) I agree with what you are saying here about what it would take to get for Chris Sale and many of the other posts here. There is one thing that hasn't been brought up and that is Boston thought they were getting a Ace last offseason when they signed David Price for 30+ million a year contract. I damn near fell out of chair when I saw that and it wasn't because I was a huge fan of Price. I think it just shows how much teams will pay for what they feel will be a true Ace. This and what Arizona paid for Zack Greinke which at the time I thought was one of the worst Free Agent contracts of all time. Right. That's a big reason why he's so valuable. Yah, he's a really freakin' good pitcher, but he also gives your team enormous payroll flexibility.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 11:40 AM) I don't think either of us really wants to have them mess this up by having them trade for whatever they can get. My point is mostly that a team like Boston is already a playoff caliber team. The White Sox haven't been close in years. They're the ones who need to make something happen way more than the Red Sox. The problem with trading for a Jackie Bradley Jr. type is that his value is very nearly that of Sale, and you might not be able to get much more out of the Red Sox other than him. I'm not sure that's the trade they need to be making right now, but it could make for an interesting retool on the fly situation. Jackie Bradley Jr's value is not anywhere near Sale, IMO. He's a nice first piece, but I'd still want 4 of their top prospects with him. JBJ, Beintendi, Devers, Kopech and Rodriguez. If they're unwilling to include JBJ, then take Moncada. The Red Sox are about to get knocked out of the playoffs in the first round because they have mediocre SP. There will be pressure to make a move, and there are no moves to be made on the FA market. That's called leverage.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 11:21 AM) The market appears good this offseason, but it also appeared good at the deadline. They weren't able to get what they were asking for then, and if they keep asking for the same players that they wanted then, I don't think they'll be able to get what they're asking for now. The Sox have had both of these players in their starting rotation since 2012, and have 0 playoff appearances to show for it. Maybe holding onto their assets will eventually result in a playoff appearance, but I'm not exactly holding my breath on it. Ultimately, as long as the Sox don't give up a bunch of draft picks this offseason, I'll be ok with whatever they do. I just don't consider them to be holding anything resembling an upper hand. Teams generally aren't going to trade meaningful pieces off the ML roster during a playoff hunt. Boston, for example, was probably unwilling to trade JBJ. I am sure the Sox want Betts (who wouldn't?), but that ship has sailed. Not to mention that teams not in contention probably aren't going to be interested at that point in time. I am not advocating for the Sox to hold onto assets for the hope of making the playoffs - though I do hope they supplement the roster with some pieces if they do indeed decide to hold Sale and Q for the time being - but moreso advocating for them maximizing the return they get on these guys. Making a trade to make a trade is the worst thing the Sox could do. They need to clean someones minor league system of all the top talent, not settle for 2nd tier guys because team X, Y or Z wasn't willing to trade their top young talent. Well guess what - then you're not getting Chris Sale, and you can keep running out your garbage back end starters or go and pay Jeremy Hellickson $55M over the next three years.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 10:40 AM) Yeah, with the organization in such a strong position, the Sox really have the upper hand here. Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but let me break it down if it is. The Sox hold a top 3 pitcher in all of the game for 3 years @ $38M (last 2 are team options which increases value in case of injury). If Chris Sale were a free agent this winter, he'd likely sign a 7 or 8 year deal worth with an AAV north of $30M. Think about that. The Sox also hold a top 30 pitcher in the game (I tend to think he is better than that, but going conservative) for the next 4 years at $37.85M (last 2 are again team options). If Jose Quintana were a free agent this winter, he'd likely sign at least a 5 year deal worth no less than $100M (AAV of $20M), which again, is probably conservative. Think about that. The best free agent SP this winter are, in no particular order: Andrew Casher, Rich Hill, Jeremy Hellickson, Colby Lewis, Ivan Nova, and Edinson Volquez. The next tier is Brett Anderson, Bartolo Colon, RA Dicky, Doug Fister, Jake Peavy and Jered Weaver. Those are the top arms available, and the best one is maybe a #3 starter. These dudes are about to get PAID. Think about that. The Sox are in an absolutely wonderful position. Yes, it probably makes sense to trade these guys and start this rebuild. But they don't HAVE TO trade them. The Sox can sit back and ask for the moon, and they should. If you don't get what you want, you keep these guys who aren't breaking the bank and who's values are not going to diminish. Maybe no one will pay what it takes to get a Chris Sale - I mean when has a legitimate ace signed for 3 years at a 1/3 of what he'd get on the open market on an AAV-basis ever been traded? Its never happened. If you have to hold on to Sale for another year because the offers aren't what you want, you do that. That is without even mentioning their other extremely valuable assets in Adam Eaton and Carlos Rodon. The Sox are in a very unique position. I understand why some don't have faith that this front office has what it takes to execute this correctly. But this is the same front office that has given us each and every one of these assets. The fact that Sale and Quintana weren't traded last July when the market seemed primed was in all liklihood because they are asking for the moon. Be patient - the Sox absolutely NEED to hit home runs with these trades. The time will come, and hopefully when it does, it is because the Sox finally got what they are asking for, and not because they settled.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 08:12 AM) Every team could use Sale. To pin one start or so as the reason they would "need" him at virtuously any cost I just don't think is going to happen. Porcello and Price were awful. Hamels was awful. It does happen. To me the real question with Boston is Porcello really a top of the rotation guy, or did he just have everything go right for a career year? It is possible if Sale started for these teams in the postseason, everything still would have gone bad. He wasn't exactly lights out against Minnesota the last game of the year. It will be interesting to see if any team is willing to pay the White Sox price, and at what level the White Sox are willing to go to get a deal done. I still think most of these proposals are overstated. I know Shelby Miller cost a huge price, and Sale is a lot better and will cost a huge price. But everyone knew the Miller price was ridiculous, and it not working out for Arizona doesn't help the White Sox cause here. Whether it is correct or not, similar things effect each other. If Abreu sucked, the Cuban players behind him would have received a lot less money. If Kaz Matsui was as good as advertised, Iguchi would never have been available to the White Sox at a bargain rate. Trading Sale with his contract situation is pretty close to unprecedented. It's one reason why I think there is a cap on what teams would be willing to give up, and while the package would be huge, not as huge as using previous trades and adding Sale's increased value would make it. The Sox do hold the cards here. I don't think they're taking anything less than an overpay, and they shouldn't.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Oct 9, 2016 -> 10:27 AM) I think there is no chance the Red Sox trade both JBJ & Benintendi for Sale. They're simply not going to create two holes in their outfield. Meh. If we gave them Melky back that fills one hole. They have Brock Holt. They can always sign a FA. We're talking about one of the best 3 pitchers in the game here. We have the leverage. It's going to have to be painful for the Red Sox.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 9, 2016 -> 10:06 AM) JBJ, Benintendi, Rodriguez, Devers and Kopech for Sale. Let the Red Sox keep Moncada, trade Devers who would then be blocked. Gives Sox Sales replacement in rotation in Rodriguez and another high upside arm in Kopech. Melky goes to DH. Sox OF defense is fantastic. That team could compete without Sale and signing a big time FA. Could even give them Melky in that deal if it gets it done. Resign Morneau or some other LH 1B/DH type. Id obviously prefer to keep Melky if they'd do that deal without him. Boston is going to want to make a big splash when they get swept today. Think this is a real possibility.

JBJ, Benintendi, Rodriguez, Devers and Kopech for Sale. Let the Red Sox keep Moncada, trade Devers who would then be blocked. Gives Sox Sales replacement in rotation in Rodriguez and another high upside arm in Kopech. Melky goes to DH. Sox OF defense is fantastic. That team could compete without Sale and signing a big time FA.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:07 AM) I hope the Red Sox sign him. Gotta replace the power somewhere. Or sign Desmond or Reddick. Then they deal us Benintendi in a deal to strengthen their rotation. The Red Sox are going to lose this series and be desperate. I think Benintendi, Moncada plus is a real possibility for Sale.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) Not really. They had the same fWAR but Avila did so with less than 2/3 the PAs that Flowers had. Avila was clearly the superior player when healthy this year. Which is saying something....

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Oct 6, 2016 -> 04:22 PM) I don't believe he would have a draft pick attached to him if he chooses to opt out. I don't think that makes him eligible for a QO. Is that the case for sure? Seems to me more players would demand opt outs if it got them out of the QO.

MAde more sense last year when the Sox had a) a protected pack and b) Cespedes didn't have draft pick compensation tied to him. I just cannot see the Sox forfeiting the #12 pick all things considered.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Oct 6, 2016 -> 09:21 AM) I completely disagree. He's rebuilding. He's talked about how Sox fans are ready for it. He also said that "they've tried the adding FA route" to patch it together. Key word there is "tried". They don't have the pieces to move. He's also talked about how it's a poor free agent class. I'd be stunned if they gave up the 12th pick in the draft to sign a free agent as well. I think Sale gets moved early in the offseason and they go from there. I think you're probably right. I just hope Rick sticks to his guns on what he wants. No settling for Chris Sale. We need a g'damn ransom.