9 hours ago, hi8is said:

This logic makes no sense to me.

If his arm was in bad shape, it was going to happen eventually. If we sat him until next year, and he blew his arm out in June, he'd miss the 2019 and 2020 season. Missing the 2020 season means we lose a big time arm for our first contention year. 

9 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

If his arm was in bad shape, it was going to happen eventually. If we sat him until next year, and he blew his arm out in June, he'd miss the 2019 and 2020 season. Missing the 2020 season means we lose a big time arm for our first contention year. 

Sorry, read your original comment wrong.

12 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

If his arm was in bad shape, it was going to happen eventually. If we sat him until next year, and he blew his arm out in June, he'd miss the 2019 and 2020 season. Missing the 2020 season means we lose a big time arm for our first contention year. 

Or even hurt it in the off-season. Then he would miss all of next year not on the MLB dl, then the Sox would have him the 7 years after that.

Edited November 7, 20187 yr by soxfan2014

20 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

Or even hurt it in the off-season. Then he would miss all of next year not on the MLB dl, then the Sox would have him the 7 years after that.

Odds of him being hurt in the offseason were slim. 

12 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

I disagree as Kopech would have needed surgery anyway. Better to get it out the way now than in 2020 or 2021 when we can win the division. 

I was one of the more outspoken people here pushing to keep Kopech in the minors last season for multiple reasons.  He may have gotten hurt anyway, but at least we wouldn't have wasted close to 20% of his service time on the DL.  Its a huge deal, and calling up Kopech last season to pitch meaningless baseball (albeit he was probably ready) really backfired, 

12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I was one of the more outspoken people here pushing to keep Kopech in the minors last season for multiple reasons.  He may have gotten hurt anyway, but at least we wouldn't have wasted close to 20% of his service time on the DL.  Its a huge deal, and calling up Kopech last season to pitch meaningless baseball (albeit he was probably ready) really backfired, 

Again, I really think if we had tried to stall Kopech for parts of 3 seasons in AAA, he would have filed a grievance and we would have lost.  It is one thing when you are talking about Eloy who only played a partial season there, but Kopech spent time in 2016 and all of 2017 there until September.  If they had tried to put him there AGAIN in 2018 after the 2017 he had, I don't think that would have flown.  I mean Bryant and Eloy have talked about grievances for being sent back after partial seasons.  I really don't think this would have flown.

16 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I was one of the more outspoken people here pushing to keep Kopech in the minors last season for multiple reasons.  He may have gotten hurt anyway, but at least we wouldn't have wasted close to 20% of his service time on the DL.  Its a huge deal, and calling up Kopech last season to pitch meaningless baseball (albeit he was probably ready) really backfired, 

I disagree here. They needed to get him to 160 innings. They couldn't do that in the minors. It's unfortunate but it is what it is at this point. 

26 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I was one of the more outspoken people here pushing to keep Kopech in the minors last season for multiple reasons.  He may have gotten hurt anyway, but at least we wouldn't have wasted close to 20% of his service time on the DL.  Its a huge deal, and calling up Kopech last season to pitch meaningless baseball (albeit he was probably ready) really backfired, 

How? If he gets hurt next year he is still shelved and wasting a year. The only difference is if that year happened in contention or not. 

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

How? If he gets hurt next year he is still shelved and wasting a year. The only difference is if that year happened in contention or not. 

His MLB service time would not have started had they kept him in the minors for all of last year. So while he would have missed a full season in either case, the Sox would have had him under team control for 7 more years instead of the 5 years they will have now because of their decision to call him up late last season.

10 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

How? If he gets hurt next year he is still shelved and wasting a year. The only difference is if that year happened in contention or not. 

What Whitesox27 said.  He doesn't accrue valuable MLB service time if he blew out his elbow in AAA and spent all of 2019 on the minor league DL.  

I agree sending Kopech back to AAA to start next season would have been tough.  But he only needs to spend like 2 weeks down there.  Teams game service time all the time.  They could have sent him down for two weeks after a bad start in July if they wanted.  They could have it made it work.  But, yes, what is over is over and it is what it is at this point.  

16 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

His MLB service time would not have started had they kept him in the minors for all of last year. So while he would have missed a full season in either case, the Sox would have had him under team control for 7 more years instead of the 5 years they will have now because of their decision to call him up late last season.

I get that. But he would have gotten hurt in June of next year, and would have missed 2019 and 2020, two years of time. We need to get over this and just get ready to appreciate the 5 years we will have him. 

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

What Whitesox27 said.  He doesn't accrue valuable MLB service time if he blew out his elbow in AAA and spent all of 2019 on the minor league DL.  

I agree sending Kopech back to AAA to start next season would have been tough.  But he only needs to spend like 2 weeks down there.  Teams game service time all the time.  They could have sent him down for two weeks after a bad start in July if they wanted.  They could have it made it work.  But, yes, what is over is over and it is what it is at this point.  

Hw wouldn't have blown his arm out in AAA though. His season was over when we called him up and he would have came up in April of next year. This would have just postponed the two seasons of lost time for him. 2018, 2019, to 2019 and 2020. Unless you think he would have been in the minors past the first two weeks of April. 

30 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

His MLB service time would not have started had they kept him in the minors for all of last year. So while he would have missed a full season in either case, the Sox would have had him under team control for 7 more years instead of the 5 years they will have now because of their decision to call him up late last season.

If he had filed a grievance and won, he would have started his service time right away starting at last September.

24 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

What Whitesox27 said.  He doesn't accrue valuable MLB service time if he blew out his elbow in AAA and spent all of 2019 on the minor league DL.  

I agree sending Kopech back to AAA to start next season would have been tough.  But he only needs to spend like 2 weeks down there.  Teams game service time all the time.  They could have sent him down for two weeks after a bad start in July if they wanted.  They could have it made it work.  But, yes, what is over is over and it is what it is at this point.  

I am pretty sure it would have been pretty unprecedented to do what is being talked about there.  I might be missing some, but I can't think of anyone who put up those kind of numbers, and carried that kind of prospect ranking/expectations/ spending parts of 3 seasons in AAA.

13 hours ago, Tony said:

It’s still shocking to me people have an issue with this, from a White Sox perspective. 

I'm shocked as well at this point. It would be a fireable decision to not secure the additional season of contractual control and have Eloy break spring training with the team. 

The decision should have been accepted when Eloy was not called up in August/September, and I fully agree with the organization. 

18 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

I get that. But he would have gotten hurt in June of next year, and would have missed 2019 and 2020, two years of time. We need to get over this and just get ready to appreciate the 5 years we will have him. 

Lol, what stocks should I buy?  Who will be the president in 2030?  How many wins will the Sox have next season?  

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am pretty sure it would have been pretty unprecedented to do what is being talked about there.  I might be missing some, but I can't think of anyone who put up those kind of numbers, and carried that kind of prospect ranking/expectations/ spending parts of 3 seasons in AAA.

Kopech was pretty terrible for the first part of last season in AAA.  They could have kept him down.  But whatever...spilled milk, moving on.  

This is one of those situations when Hahn says stuff just to seem like he has the player's best personal interest at heart but in reality he knows exactly what he is going to do at the start of next season. There's no reason to pay any mind to this.

6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Lol, what stocks should I buy?  Who will be the president in 2030?  How many wins will the Sox have next season?  

Lol okay. So you honestly think he would have gone from needing TJS immediately with arm damage, to a miraculous recovery and not needing it, if he came up in April of next year? 

Just now, SonofaRoache said:

Lol okay. So you honestly think he would have gone from needing TJS immediately with arm damage, to a miraculous recovery and not needing it, if he came up in April of next year? 

No.  I think that Kopech probably would have gotten hurt in AAA anyway, gotten TJS, and spent all next season on the milb DL and not accrued away close to 20% of his control. 

Or maybe he doesn't get hurt at all.  Or maybe he doesn't get hurt until next season and it ends up worse.  No one really knows.  But the one thing we do know is how it did play out, and with benefit of hinsight, it literally couldn't have worked out much worse for the Sox.  

15 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

So does rick appease the “if Eloy deserves to break camp then he better” crowd...or does he appease the “rick if you don’t secure the extra year of control in a down year you’re an idiot and need to be fired” crowd?

 

tough one.  Kind of a presidential decision.  What would you choose

Of course he won't break camp because then all the hate he faced for not calling him up in September would be for nothing. The can live with a shitstorm,  Epstein got hate by cubs fans too but a week after he was up that was all forgotten.

I get that Kopech throws hard, but I think the logic is a little too convenient that they could have planned for his UCL tear better. There was a chance Kopech never had a significant elbow injury. There was a chance he blew it out in 3 years, there was a chance he had a horrible shoulder injury.

There was always a decent, I don't know, 45% chance he would have TJS (maybe more), but at some point he needed to build up innings and I don't think you can say pushing him to get to 160 did it. It's just the risk of an arm like that and luck.

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

I get that Kopech throws hard, but I think the logic is a little too convenient that they could have planned for his UCL tear better. There was a chance Kopech never had a significant elbow injury. There was a chance he blew it out in 3 years, there was a chance he had a horrible shoulder injury.

There was always a decent, I don't know, 45% chance he would have TJS (maybe more), but at some point he needed to build up innings and I don't think you can say pushing him to get to 160 did it. It's just the risk of an arm like that and luck.

I think the point is, if they played the service time clock, it likely would have saved a couple of seasons of service time. He most likely was messed up when he arrived. His first start, I was expecting with his being extra amped to be well over 100. He was throwing 94. I am guessing he tore this, at least partially, in Charlotte, and at the very latest if most likely would have been discovered either with a spring training physical, or some time in Glendale.  The way it turned out, was about as bad of luck as the Sox could have had.

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I think the point is, if they played the service time clock, it likely would have saved a couple of seasons of service time. He most likely was messed up when he arrived. His first start, I was expecting with his being extra amped to be well over 100. He was throwing 94. I am guessing he tore this, at least partially, in Charlotte, and at the very latest if most likely would have been discovered either with a spring training physical, or some time in Glendale.  The way it turned out, was about as bad of luck as the Sox could have had.

It was certainly the worst luck possible.

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I think the point is, if they played the service time clock, it likely would have saved a couple of seasons of service time. He most likely was messed up when he arrived. His first start, I was expecting with his being extra amped to be well over 100. He was throwing 94. I am guessing he tore this, at least partially, in Charlotte, and at the very latest if most likely would have been discovered either with a spring training physical, or some time in Glendale.  The way it turned out, was about as bad of luck as the Sox could have had.

Yep.