Who has been the worse of the unfireable front office duos employed by Jerry Reinsdorf? Both would likely have been fired by now under any other owner.

I have KenHahn being worse than Garpax. While the Sox have won a world series under Kenny, they just have an overall abysmal record. The Bulls have a nice core and have drafted far better than the White Sox. It's tough to compare across sports, but u have Garpax higher than KenHahn

The Bulls were among  the best teams in the league during the D.Rose era. The Sox had an HOF caliber ace and cheap controllable quality pieces and couldn't make the playoffs once.

2 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

The Bulls were among  the best teams in the league during the D.Rose era. The Sox had an HOF caliber ace and cheap controllable quality pieces and couldn't make the playoffs once.

D Rose was pretty lucky, but they did draft around him well (Noah, Taj, Asik, Jimmy). They also completely pantsed Isiah Thomas and the Knicks with the Eddy Curry trade (but who didn't own Isiah). The returns on the Jimmy Butler trade look great. They just can't nail free agency, ever. Drama and free agency are Garpax biggest issue. They lose far less than KenHahn though, IMO.

I genuinely don't know.

The NBA is kind of a bullshit league where unless you're absolutely amazing what's the point in even trying to win. The Bulls are a nightmare but being a nightmare is simply a necessary evil. That said some of the things Garpax do are totally stupid...

Sox on the other hand have no excuse. You can't even say they are trying to lose since there's no real benefit to that strategy, especially if you're drafting is as bad as the Sox drafting. They just suck.

oh god...Garpax gives me nightmares, and now you coined KenHahn. I am going to have Bill n Ted level nightmare scenes of them chasing me as bunnies now. 

Well at least Hahn and Kw don't physically assault their coaches 

8 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Well at least Hahn and Kw don't physically assault their coaches 

Yeah, it was only those drunken Ligues who could pull off the opposing team’s base coach attack...

Kenny and hahn at least have a title under their belt, I guess

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Well at least Hahn and Kw don't physically assault their coaches 

there's been plenty of circus here too.

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

there's been plenty of circus here too.

The assault part is honestly the only good difference I could come up with 

I've thought about this a lot.

Here is my analysis:

- Paxson and Gar have to be held to a higher standard because they took over one of the best sports brands in the world, have a loyal and adoring fan base, and a big market which makes it a lot easier to compete for talent in FA.

- Because of their inherent advantages, I rate them in the bottom half of front offices due to the:

     - Lack of creativity - are never in play for big acquisitions because they both fall in love with their assets and are too timid to send out what it takes

    - Refusal to spend/go for it, by the time they dipped into the luxury tax, it was the end of their core, and they used it for an end of career pau gasol. THey have one of the smallest front offices in the league, and consistently leave cap open but have same issue as hahn where they overpay on the end of the roster and restrict bigger moves.

    - Antagonistic relationships with players and coaches - between the medical mismanagement, throwing coaches under the bus, and physical altercations, they've gotten away with things nobody should

 

HOWEVER - The absolute strength of garpax is good drafting, and if I had to choose between the two I'd take that strength over the lack of any strength on the KW/Hahn side.

 

KENHAN:

- For Kenny Williams first decade, he oversaw one of the better pro scouting departments in the game in my opinion. That ended as the age curve progressed and cheap veterans via trade and free agency became terrible investments.

- Clearly the best way to succeed in baseball is draft/player dev/international scouting. They have been in the bottom 5 in baseball over last 20 years (generously).

- They run their team as if they are setting up to be the illitch tigers, when they should be running it as the cleveland baseball team, rays, or modern twins. Meaning, they operate as if they believe their financial advantages define their team building, but are unrealistic about what it means (constant disadvantage to actual big market teams), while neglecting the ways that small market teams have succeeded.

The last point is inexcusable. 

The thing to emphasize is they are both bad. But despite the "rebuild on the fly" failure of 2014-15-16 of hahn, he said when he took over sox were going to start building up farm. The CBA changed to the white sox favor there. The draft position was more favorable. International free agency became more favorable to white sox. Everything bent toward making it easier for him to operate under Reinsdorf constraints yet still only improved marginally.

 

Nobody is reading at this point anyway. Hi! if you made it this far.

Anyway point is while I wouldn't want Dick Williams or Dayton Moore running the white sox, I have to agree with balta that Rick Hahn is the worst GM in the league at this point. Some bad ones got fired recently, nobody has been operating as long with as little accomplished. DiPoto had similar constraints as when hahn took over and still created an 89 win team with paperclip trading. And DiPoto is not good.

Isn't the bigger question, what is the same in both cases? I think it starts with a J and ends with an erry.

41 minutes ago, bmags said:

Anyway point is while I wouldn't want Dick Williams or Dayton Moore running the white sox, I have to agree with balta that Rick Hahn is the worst GM in the league at this point. Some bad ones got fired recently, nobody has been operating as long with as little accomplished. DiPoto had similar constraints as when hahn took over and still created an 89 win team with paperclip trading. And DiPoto is not good.

They got the new media deal from ROOT Sports and went out and almost immediately spent the money on Cano and Cruz.

The problem is that Felix, then Seager and especially Ichiro were already trending downwards....they had what looked to be future TOR studs in Walker and Paxton, and developed Haniger and Zunino as well, but it still wasn’t quite enough to get them over the hump.  Too much time on the DL, or fighting the aging curve/s.

Bulls have won 15 games but if you read some people at this forum only, you might think they're one of the most talented teams in the NBA.. its laughable. 

Garpax havent drafted well in 10 years. 

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Bulls have won 15 games but if you read some people at this forum only, you might think they're one of the most talented teams in the NBA.. its laughable. 

Garpax havent drafted well in 10 years. 

Well between J.Williams, Brand, Duhon, Deng, Boozer, Dunleavy Jr. and Carter, that augurs well for another Dukie in Zion falling into their laps somehow and putting them back on the roadmap to relevancy again.

Hard to pick between the two, that's like asking would you rather drown or be buried alive?

They are both awful, but cutting them some slack, as others have pointed out, who is the constant here in both organizations?

Edited March 1, 20197 yr by Lip Man 1

18 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Bulls have won 15 games but if you read some people at this forum only, you might think they're one of the most talented teams in the NBA.. its laughable. 

Garpax havent drafted well in 10 years. 

Nobody said they were the most talented team in the nba, they just actually know what they are talking about.

1 hour ago, bmags said:

there's been plenty of circus here too.

Bmags needs to stay out of white sox business.

On the positive side for the Bulls, at least they don't draft and give quality playing time to their FO/coaches' kids

3 minutes ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

On the positive side for the Bulls, at least they don't draft and give quality playing time to their FO/coaches' kids

well...they do let anyone from iowa state do whatever they want.

36 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They got the new media deal from ROOT Sports and went out and almost immediately spent the money on Cano and Cruz.

The problem is that Felix, then Seager and especially Ichiro were already trending downwards....they had what looked to be future TOR studs in Walker and Paxton, and developed Haniger and Zunino as well, but it still wasn’t quite enough to get them over the hump.  Too much time on the DL, or fighting the aging curve/s.

Ichiro was gone in 2012. Walker and Haniger were traded for each other before the 2017 season. None of the timelines line up the way you presented them.  It's just a random collection of names.

1 minute ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Ichiro was gone in 2012. Walker and Haniger were traded for each other before the 2017 season. None of the timelines line up the way you presented them.  It's just a random collection of names.

Also DiPoto took over at the end of 2015. So...

GarPax have an actual org strength: drafting.  What can KenHahn hang their hat on?  Used to be keeping guys healthy, in particular pitchers.  Not so much anymore.

I'm a huge fan of the Bulls as well as the Sox and as much as I've b****ed and moaned and argued that GarPax should have been fired last offseason it's clear that right now GarPax are better at their jobs than KenHahn.

GarPax have done a good job correcting their mistakes and being proactive lately.  Firing Hoiberg mid-season (a bold move) and then trading for Otto by dumping a solid draft pick before he got expensive (Bobby) and a bad FA mistake (Jabari) was a great course correction and an admission of mistakes.

Right now the Bulls look like one of 3-4 young teams (Atlanta, Chicago, Sacramento, Mavs) that are young and exciting and have room for growth.  Only the Mavs out of that group have a guy that looks like a superstar (Luka) but you could see Lauri or Lavine taking that next step and getting there.  You gotta draft well and they do that for the most part.  

Bulls have:

Lauri (21)

Lavine (23)

Porter (25)

WCJR (19)

Lotto pick (likely top 5)

That is a great collection of young talent and assets.  They'll need some luck with growth but they've put themselves in position to become a 50 win club with another good offseason and then from there it just depends on if one of those guys can turn into a top 10 superstar.