During Rocky's tenure, he hasn't had great teams. That is no mystery. 

IMO, the effect a manager can have on a teams performance isn't massive, barring extremes. Ricky has managed to put the worst hitters on the team at the cleanup spot regularly. He is putting awful hitters in an important spot and giving them more ABs then better hitters.  

Ricky's teams have an affinity for the bunt. They bunt too damn much. The wrong players are bunting.

Ricky's teams have been awful in the field as well. I don't care if they

Gutteridge, Bevington and Ventura have RR beat - but not by much.

Reinsdorf inherited his best manager in baseball and his best player in basketball. 

 

Edited May 25, 20196 yr by GradMc

No.

How quickly people forget Terry Bevington 

17 minutes ago, GradMc said:

Bevington and Ventura have RR beat - but not by much.

I'd say Ricky has those two beat by a WIDE margin.

Fregosi was pretty bad too, but that was also during a rebuild.

No one was worse than

TERRY BEVINGTON

That honor would go to Bevington in a landslide.

Bevington.  Ricky sucks but it's hilarious how he's basically an old school manager in a new era of baseball that he just doesn't fit.

I have very little memory of Bevington so it's hard to compare.  As bad as RR is, I still feel like Robin was slightly worse.   

It's gotta be Robin, for my lifetime anyway.

I was surprised the White Sox Talk podcast guys were willing to go on record on the Frazier/Eaton episode with how much they trashed Robin.  Terrible hire.

23 minutes ago, justBLAZE said:

It's gotta be Robin, for my lifetime anyway.

I was surprised the White Sox Talk podcast guys were willing to go on record on the Frazier/Eaton episode with how much they trashed Robin.  Terrible hire.

If I could pretend 2012 Robin did not exist, then he would clearly dominate this. But 2012 makes this a difficult case. 

Folks you have to look at the entire history of the franchise not just during your lifetimes. Granted Bevington, Ventura were pretty bad. One was psychotic the other didn't even want the job but they gave it to him anyway. Renteria is right there as well (all approved by JR by the way which speaks volumes...)

But historically Lew Fonseca and certainly Jack Onslow may have been the worst. Onslow was so bad one of his players actually got into a fistfight with him. If memory serves the guy who did it was eventually traded for a young left handed pitcher named Billy Pierce.

If my memory is correct at least something very good came out of that experience for the Sox.

But it should be disturbing that many of these guys were fairly "recent" hires by the organization that have proven to be very bad at what they do. Even more disturbing is that again a lot of these guys are members of "the family" and instead of the Sox conducting a full scale search that is open to getting the best they already seem to have an idea of who is going to get the job and the guys they hire basically are working pretty cheap.

Remember JR has gone on record as saying he's never though managers or head coaches make that much of a difference (which is why he's never really hired any outstanding ones with a proven track record.) He lucked into Ozzie as he did with Jeff Torborg. 

Edited May 25, 20196 yr by Lip Man 1

Bevington. Also, Rick this season is doing an amazing job. I still expect this team to lose a zillion games but as of tonight, this team has overachieved big time. And that is partly because of Ricky.

Bevington had no highlights. Ricky also is better than Robin.

The stories that keep coming out about 2016 make Ventura worse by miles. 

Renteria is horrible tactically but he does seem to get a lot out his guys. 

The answer is bevington anyway

Edited May 25, 20196 yr by mqr

Also 119 years is a really damn long time. 

I definitely don't know the entire history of White Sox managers, but I do strongly believe that Ventura was a better in-game manager than Renteria is, and that is not a compliment towards Ventura 

5 hours ago, GradMc said:

Gutteridge, Bevington and Ventura have RR beat - but not by much.

This. Anyone who says Renteria is probably either a milennial, or simply wasn't paying attention.

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Even more disturbing is that again a lot of these guys are members of "the family" and instead of the Sox conducting a full scale search that is open to getting the best they already seem to have an idea of who is going to get the job and the guys they hire basically are working pretty cheap.

Remember JR has gone on record as saying he's never though managers or head coaches make that much of a difference (which is why he's never really hired any outstanding ones with a proven track record.)

And, this.

When Ventura was hired, that was the 1st moment I got into the mindset of "every fucking clown in the front office needs to be fired." I still havent wavered from that viewpoint all these years later.

When a GOOD organization, needs to hire too talent, the interview teaches the org about themselves as much as it does about the interviewee. Having a thorough and competitive process is essential in a competitive industry. Otherwise, you end up with incompetence, ignorance, and failure among your decision-makers. 

The fact that this org hasn't had a competitive process for ANY of the major hirees (manager, scouting director, director of player development , etc...) is a big fucking problem. Its CENTRAL to why this org never seems to progress, when other orgs seem to make leaps forward. It's a massive part of why this team has been among the suckiest sucks that have ever sucked over the past decade or so.

Again, I just throw this non-competitive process onto the mountain of reasons why every last member of the front office needs to be fired. Seriously, just blow it up, & start over. This fandom deserves better.

Edited May 25, 20196 yr by Two-Gun Pete

JFC, I could roast S'mores on this hot take. RR sucks tactically, but he isn't even the worst WS manager of the last two WS managers. This poll is a clown question, bro.

6 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Folks you have to look at the entire history of the franchise not just during your lifetimes. Granted Bevington, Ventura were pretty bad. One was psychotic the other didn't even want the job but they gave it to him anyway. Renteria is right there as well (all approved by JR by the way which speaks volumes...)

But historically Lew Fonseca and certainly Jack Onslow may have been the worst. Onslow was so bad one of his players actually got into a fistfight with him. If memory serves the guy who did it was eventually traded for a young left handed pitcher named Billy Pierce.

If my memory is correct at least something very good came out of that experience for the Sox.

But it should be disturbing that many of these guys were fairly "recent" hires by the organization that have proven to be very bad at what they do. Even more disturbing is that again a lot of these guys are members of "the family" and instead of the Sox conducting a full scale search that is open to getting the best they already seem to have an idea of who is going to get the job and the guys they hire basically are working pretty cheap.

Remember JR has gone on record as saying he's never though managers or head coaches make that much of a difference (which is why he's never really hired any outstanding ones with a proven track record.) He lucked into Ozzie as he did with Jeff Torborg. 

Many would add Larussa list of outstanding ones even though I wasn't nuts over him.

9 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Folks you have to look at the entire history of the franchise not just during your lifetimes. Granted Bevington, Ventura were pretty bad. One was psychotic the other didn't even want the job but they gave it to him anyway. Renteria is right there as well (all approved by JR by the way which speaks volumes...)

But historically Lew Fonseca and certainly Jack Onslow may have been the worst. Onslow was so bad one of his players actually got into a fistfight with him. If memory serves the guy who did it was eventually traded for a young left handed pitcher named Billy Pierce.

If my memory is correct at least something very good came out of that experience for the Sox.

But it should be disturbing that many of these guys were fairly "recent" hires by the organization that have proven to be very bad at what they do. Even more disturbing is that again a lot of these guys are members of "the family" and instead of the Sox conducting a full scale search that is open to getting the best they already seem to have an idea of who is going to get the job and the guys they hire basically are working pretty cheap.

Remember JR has gone on record as saying he's never though managers or head coaches make that much of a difference (which is why he's never really hired any outstanding ones with a proven track record.) He lucked into Ozzie as he did with Jeff Torborg. 

If I last another 30 years I will be telling folks legends about the white Sox manager who allowed a preteen to have a locker with the team for the full year and then was so checked out that one of his own players described that kid as the teams true leader. Somehow I will have to weave the jersey cutting up into this story. It’s truly an epic tale of a manager who gave up and could not have cared less. Youngsters won’t believe it.

7 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

This. Anyone who says Renteria is probably either a milennial, or simply wasn't paying attention.

And, this.

When Ventura was hired, that was the 1st moment I got into the mindset of "every fucking clown in the front office needs to be fired." I still havent wavered from that viewpoint all these years later.

When a GOOD organization, needs to hire too talent, the interview teaches the org about themselves as much as it does about the interviewee. Having a thorough and competitive process is essential in a competitive industry. Otherwise, you end up with incompetence, ignorance, and failure among your decision-makers. 

The fact that this org hasn't had a competitive process for ANY of the major hirees (manager, scouting director, director of player development , etc...) is a big fucking problem. Its CENTRAL to why this org never seems to progress, when other orgs seem to make leaps forward. It's a massive part of why this team has been among the suckiest sucks that have ever sucked over the past decade or so.

Again, I just throw this non-competitive process onto the mountain of reasons why every last member of the front office needs to be fired. Seriously, just blow it up, & start over. This fandom deserves better.

Your heart is in the right place but the changes you want are not going to happen. The franchise is making money hand over fist. As long as it keeps making money JR is happy with his organization. Always remember, Forbes magazine said the White Sox were the 6th most profitable team in 2018.

We don’t see about 80% of what a manager does, so who the hell really knows. 

On a brighter note...I have personally seen every manager since Lopez.  Chuck Tanner was the best manager IMO.  He handled everything well including a touchy star in Dick Allen.  Lopez was a pretty good baseball man in his own right.  You really didn't hear about bad managers back in that era.  There were only 16 big league managers and they all seemed solid and well respected.  When teams didn't do well it was the players fault not the managers.

9 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Your heart is in the right place but the changes you want are not going to happen. The franchise is making money hand over fist. As long as it keeps making money JR is happy with his organization. Always remember, Forbes magazine said the White Sox were the 6th most profitable team in 2018.

We said the same thing about the Blackhawks not too long ago. Keep the faith, my friend.

4 minutes ago, Blackout Friday said:

We don’t see about 80% of what a manager does, so who the hell really knows. 

Well, for the parts of the job that ARE on public display, Renteria sucks at them.

Think lineup construction: Any one of us can Google "how to properly set a lineup," and decades of R & D, with mountains of data to back it up, can be had. Instead, it seems like Renteria stupidly prioritizes L-R-L-R in one of the more important parts of the lineup.

Or bunting. The maths are easily available to know when to bunt (I.e. the odd speedster trying for a base hit, or Alonzo trying to break the shift against him), and when to NOT bunt. (I.e. ~90% of all the other cases where Ricky calls the bunt.)

An optimist could say that these issues are easily fixable. A SOX fan will look at years of stupidity at all levels of this org, and groan.

 

I trust Ricky!

The 5.05 team era doesn't help.