20 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

So you're going to demote the closer you signed this off-season for a guy who cant perform just because maybe that will make him play better?

You dance with the one who brought you. No point in messing up Hendricks because Kimbrel cant do his job.

 

Kimbrels only job he's ever known in professional baseball is to close while Hendriks has pitched in several different roles during his career. Hendrik's can pitch the 8th inning better than Kimbrel and Kimbrel can pitch the 9th inning better than Hendrik. It's pretty simple. Put the players in position where they can perform the best.

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Kimbrels only job he's ever known in professional baseball is to close while Hendriks has pitched in several different roles during his career. Hendrik's can pitch the 8th inning better than Kimbrel and Kimbrel can pitch the 9th inning better than Hendrik. It's pretty simple. Put the players in position where they can perform the best.

Last week everyone on this thread wanted Hendriks demoted to mop up and Kimbrel pitching the 9th.

10 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Hendriks has publicly said he is fine with pitching the 8th.  He could be lying but I take him at his word.  He seems to be able to pitch in whatever situation you throw him in.

Kimbrel won't become the closer until he donates to Tony's animal rescue foundation

9 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Wont we just be in the same position with forcing a closer into a set up role?

 

Hendriks was a bridge guy for a long time before closing.  Additionally, he's learned the art of slapping himself on the ass to get his adrenaline pumping if he's in a low leverage situation and doesn't have his good shit.  You ever seen Kimbrel slap his own ass in the 8th?  That should tell you all you need to know about moving him into a bridge role.

1 minute ago, ron883 said:

Kimbrel won't become the closer until he donates to Tony's animal rescue foundation

Can Kimbrel teach my cat not to hop on my counter?

15 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Well from the beginning Ive said it was a stupid plan. But you dont double down and make even more bad decisions.

If Kimbrel a "HOF" Griffey in his prime cant switch to set up, why can lowly Hendriks? Wont we just be in the same position with forcing a closer into a set up role?

Hendriks is more important to the Sox, you cant potentially damage him for Kimbrel.  Hahn possibly messed this up big time.

Better to cut the losses in 2021 than to screw up Hendriks for the next three years of his contract...that's a door you just don't want open unless Hendriks continues to blow saves at his current clip (should be at least an 80-85% success rate at the bottom of the range).

Edited August 24, 20214 yr by caulfield12

All I know is that if the postseason started tomorrow, I'd have zero trust in Kimbrel and pretty much everyone  else on this pen.

 

17 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Kimbrels only job he's ever known in professional baseball is to close while Hendriks has pitched in several different roles during his career. Hendrik's can pitch the 8th inning better than Kimbrel and Kimbrel can pitch the 9th inning better than Hendrik. It's pretty simple. Put the players in position where they can perform the best.

Cubs would have given away Kimbrel cheap before this season. Maybe you were watching a different player but in no world is 6.5 and 5.2 better than 1.8 and 1.78

Cubs got lucky he was hot for a garbage team going no where. But 3 years ago Kuechel was better than Gio, so I assume hes your ace.

Edited August 24, 20214 yr by Soxbadger

2 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

All I know is that if the postseason started tomorrow, I'd have zero trust in Kimbrel and pretty much everyone  else on this pen.

 

Right now, it feels more like 2000 and 2008...but at least 2008 we were missing Quentin but the offense suddenly got hot for that final week, at least Alexei did.

The 2000, 2006 and 2012 teams (feelings as the season wound down) are the closest I can think of.

Obviously, this team has more talent, overall...but I hope the solution isn't just let's wait for (Jimenez/Robert/Grandal).

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

Cubs would have given away Kimbrel cheap before this season. Maybe you were watching a different player but in no world is 6.5 and 5.2 better than 1.8 and 1.78

Cubs got lucky he was hot for a garbage team going no where. But 3 years ago Kuchel was better than Gio, so I assume hes your ace.

Again, gave up zero runs in September 2020 on a playoff baseball team.  He righted the ship September of last year.

In September of 2019, his ERA ballooned because of a few really disasterous outings.  He actually had a very good August posting a 1.35 ERA that month.

He has said before that the long layoff was really problematic for him as he never got a rhythm going.  Add to that the long layoff at the beginning of 2020, it was a recipe for disaster.  

He had a really good September that year for the Cubs and was lights out  for them for the rest of his time there.

 

 

Kimbrel has 33.1 IP in the 9th inning this year with a 0.00 ERA. 
 

He is being misused, plain and simple

5 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

Again, gave up zero runs in September 2020 on a playoff baseball team.  He righted the ship September of last year.

In September of 2019, his ERA ballooned because of a few really disasterous outings.  He actually had a very good August posting a 1.35 ERA that month.

He has said before that the long layoff was really problematic for him as he never got a rhythm going.  Add to that the long layoff at the beginning of 2020, it was a recipe for disaster.  

He had a really good September that year for the Cubs and was lights out  for them for the rest of his time there.

 

 

I hope he gets his act together, but maybe Im old school and think players need to earn their reputation. I personally don't like handing a guy a job because he has been bad at another one. 

It really is Hahn's fault, Kimbrel is no Smoltz.

26 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

I hope he gets his act together, but maybe Im old school and think players need to earn their reputation. I personally don't like handing a guy a job because he has been bad at another one. 

It really is Hahn's fault, Kimbrel is no Smoltz.

Has he not earned a reputation considering he will likely join Smoltz in Cooperstown?  The whole reason I think we are saying Kimbrel should maybe get the 9th, I'm not there yet, is because he's one of the best players at his position to ever play the game.

Why not try Kimbrel in the 9th one night and Hendricks the 9th the next night?  AL top tier teams are good and I expect playoff games to be close.  Maybe don't use either of these guys in the 8th at all.  Just use them in 9th & extra innings.

3 minutes ago, Dan Pasqua said:

Why not try Kimbrel in the 9th one night and Hendricks the 9th the next night?  AL top tier teams are good and I expect playoff games to be close.  Maybe don't use either of these guys in the 8th at all.  Just use them in 9th & extra innings.

But who in God's name can they trust to throw the 8th?

It has been a graveyard all year.  Marshall, Heuer, Foster, Bummer, Ruiz, Burr, etc.

 

Jimmy Cordero, lol?

Kopech but I agree with previous poster that maybe we need to see if Kimbrel performs better with Grandal.

Edited August 24, 20214 yr by Dan Pasqua

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But who in God's name can they trust to throw the 8th?

It has been a graveyard all year.  Marshall, Heuer, Foster, Bummer, Ruiz, Burr, etc.

 

Jimmy Cordero, lol?

Ricky Renteria's use of the guy was sadistic. I'm pretty sure Ricky is a masochist. 

3 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

Carlos Rodon went from getting DFA'd by the Sox and no one claiming him to arguably being the best AL SP on a per inning basis. Dylan Cease is currently 16th in fWAR amongst pitchers. He's gotten Reynaldo Lopez on the right track with improved mechanics. The role he played in turning around Gio's career has been documented 1,000 times already. The Sox also lead the majors in pitcher WAR, and have the best strikeout rate for pitchers despite the fact they play in the AL.

He certainly hasn't had smashing success with every pitcher, but on the hole, adding him to the organization has been a HUGE positive.

Gio, Rodon and Cease are relievers?

It's way too soon to proclaim Lopez as a Katz success story dude

Read my post again, carefully this time.

Hendriks has seemed to workout pretty well in multi-inning situations, unless the stats don't bear this out, just going off memory. Maybe use Kopech and Hendriks in similar roles, and alternate them, with Kimbrel closing

2 minutes ago, joesaiditstrue said:

Gio, Rodon and Cease are relievers?

It's way too soon to proclaim Lopez as a Katz success story dude

Read my post again, carefully this time.

How many millions of dollars have the improvements of Rodon and Cease been worth to the White Sox organization? Or helping Giolito go from a train wreck into someone who regularly appears on CY ballots.

Literally in your first sentence you wrote " Katz has been pretty underwhelming so far" no where in your post do you specify you were *only* talking about the bullpen. Sure, if you look at the areas the pitching has underwhelmed, he doesn't look as good. If you look at the staff as a whole, they've been arguably the best in baseball. Given how many pitchers needed to take drastic steps forward for that to happen, he deserves a ton of credit.

7 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

How many millions of dollars have the improvements of Rodon and Cease been worth to the White Sox organization? Or helping Giolito go from a train wreck into someone who regularly appears on CY ballots.

Literally in your first sentence you wrote " Katz has been pretty underwhelming so far" no where in your post do you specify you were *only* talking about the bullpen. Sure, if you look at the areas the pitching has underwhelmed, he doesn't look as good. If you look at the staff as a whole, they've been arguably the best in baseball. Given how many pitchers needed to take drastic steps forward for that to happen, he deserves a ton of credit.

I literally mentioned the bullpen immediately after that first statement, Ive not criticized Katz on the starters, that would be absurd

2 minutes ago, joesaiditstrue said:

I literally mentioned the bullpen immediately after that first statement, Ive not criticized Katz on the starters, that would be absurd

Make sure your posts say what you think they do before you're going to start condescending people. ?

2 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

Make sure your posts say what you think they do before you're going to start condescending people. ?

show me where my post indicated that I was criticizing Katz' handling of NON relief pitchers, there's a reason I put a comma after the word "underwhelming" followed by the words "entire bullpen"

why are you being a dick lol

2 minutes ago, joesaiditstrue said:

show me where my post indicated that I was criticizing Katz' handling of NON relief pitchers, there's a reason I put a comma after the word "underwhelming" followed by the words "entire bullpen"

why are you being a dick lol

I'm not trying to make this a thing. It's my last post. You were the one who patronized me saying I should " Read [your] post again, carefully this time." No where in your original post did you specify you were talking about only the bullpen. You did mention the bullpen, you could have made it clear you were talking exclusively about the bullpen, you didn't do that. If you "re read your post again, carefully this time" that would be quite evident to you.

I'm not trying to be rude or combative. I've never had an interaction on here like this before. But you brought it on yourself responding the way you did.

Setting aside the several issues brought up through the first 2 + pages (2018, Katz, Madrigal, Heuer, Boston Red Sox, Rick Hahn, Hendricks, etc.), Kimbrel is more of a scapegoat for an overall poorly performing and managed team, with much of the angst due to the fact Madrigal, and to a lessor extent Heuer, were traded.

Kimbrel's record to date in a White Sox uniform:

1. Kimbrel has pitched better than Liam during this period

• Hendriks 7 Appearances, 7 1/3 IP,  3 HRs, 7 runs (6 ER)
• Kimbrel 10 Appearances, 9 1/3 IP, 2 HRs, 6 runs (6 ER)

2. In Kimbrel's 10 appearances:

• 3 were perfect (1 IP 1K; 1 IP 1K; 1 IP 2Ks)
• 3 were solid: 1 inning & 1 baserunner, 0 runs, 2 K average (1 IP, 1 H, 1 K); (1 IP, 1 BB, 2 Ks); (1 IP, 1 H, 3 Ks)
• Of the remaining 4 appearances:

1. 8/20: Tony admitted he managed the 8th inning in Tampa poorly. Kimbrell allowed 1 walk, and was incorrectly pulled by La Russa after the second out, His walk scored when Bummer gave up four straight hits/walks and three runs total, Kimbrel's walk and two of his own runs. Sox came back to win.
2. 8/24: Gave up a single, and the runner scored on 2 wild pitches. His fault since one runner scored (the intentional walk was stranded). Sox lost, scoring 1 run the entire game.
3. 8/14: Gave up a home run to lead off the inning vs. Aaron Judge. Allowed a second hit, which was retired when the next hitter grounded into a DP to end the inning. Liam gave up 3 runs to lose the game in the 10th.
4. 8/6: Three runs allowed on a three run homer by Andrew Romine with the wind blowing out (expected BA .170). Sox came back in extra innings to win.

3. The trade can be hashed to death over the next few years, possibly beyond, but Kimbrel is not the reason the Sox are playing .500 baseball since his arrival.